How to fix localized resources and get players out of bases

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

How to fix localized resources and get players out of bases

Postby NotJimmy97 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:28 pm

I've been thinking heavily about this game over the past few weeks, and I have some suggestions for potentially how to solve the issues we've seen this world.

The problem:
    As we've always seen in this game, there is a scarcity of incentives to get players to leave their bases, resulting in less player-to-player interactions and a growing sense of disconnect between player villages and the outside world. The end-game for most villages is to satisfy all their base needs without ever exposing their non-warrior characters to the outside. Of course, this is a somewhat toxic game-play model, as it divides the game into a factory-efficiency-simulator within villages, and a brutal gankfest outside. When it comes to interactions with higher-level players, you can all but guarantee that any character of theirs you find outside a village has been bred specifically to kill. This is an impediment to an MMO which should thrive in the department of organic, player-created interactions.

    Localized resources have effectively exacerbated the problem described above. Villages will wall-off any ice spires, salt pools, and brimstone springs they find, and there is no incentive for other players to siege these claims because the overhead is far too steep. An alt will log in periodically to harvest said resources, and the big villages which managed to wall off the most nodes will obviously have an impermeable advantage versus smaller newcomers. This late in the game, it is simply impossible to recoup the same power as, say, Dis or the Hedgehugs, because the salt/brimstone/ice just isn't there. This is one of the biggest reasons why the game in its current state cannot run on a permanent world, and why wipes are a necessity to return to a point where being on top is possible.

How this can be improved:
    As I see it, barring significant changes to siege and claims, the best way to address people walling off localized resources is to make it literally impossible. This can be done as follows:

    Make localized resources temporary. Instead of generating nodes at worldstart and keeping them there forever, make localized resources shuffle around as they are harvested, thus creating a constant incentive for players to go out and explore the world. After being harvested, the localized resource crumbles into dust, making walls and claims no longer viable.

    Give reduced bounties from localized resources collected in enemy territories, and a slightly increased return from resources collected in your own territory. This will create a tangible incentive to expand control over larger swathes of land, and provides a new incentive to chip away at enemy territory for reasons other than griefing.

    Now, this creates a new problem, which is that people will just send their warrior alts out to find resources and continue ganking people as necessary. This can be disincentivized as follows:

    Implement diverse requirements for harvesting nodes and influencing their respective qualities. Make it such that the quality of your resources depends on skills and attributes not often used by warrior characters.

    Restrict resource harvesting to characters with 'pure souls'. In other words, serial murderers who have left murder/assault scents in the past few weeks shouldn't be permitted to gather from resources. This creates a dynamic whereby villages have to balance their desire for localized resources with keeping their warriors in play, expending large amounts of LP and food just to make an 'adventurer' character who only gathers resources, or more realistically, creating an adventure party where village crafters are escorted by warriors across the lands in search of valuable plunder. You could also explore putting resources in play which require multiple characters to gather, although such a system is likely to punish hermits and incentivize alt creation.

Future implications and suggestions:
    If such changes were to be implemented, I think it may have a good shot at fixing the issue we face with players never exploring the outside world in any meaningful capacity. If you ask me, I think that localized resources should be explored as ripe, fertile ground for new content. Putting gathered, localized resources into the production chain of basic industries (such as metal, cheese, and farming in particular), we can stop the current trend whereby Haven & Hearth asymptotically approaches a rural factory simulator, and start returning to an adventure/exploration MMO where people experience the beautiful outside world as a routine part of gameplay.

Please tell me what you think, and I hope Jorb & Loftar will have time to read some of my thoughts. Thank you.
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Re: How to fix localized resources and get players out of ba

Postby sMartins » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:17 pm

Well, localized resource that change position randomly is a good idea to me ... that will improve exploration .. and I love exploration.
We could follow the Eve way ... that is a good one.
In Eve you have to travel in dangerous location usually with a non warrior class (trying to be more stealth as possible) and use your scanner skills, first to identify the resource and then your hacking abilities to get the loot.
Same thing could happen on Haven, let's say you need to explore around and using some mechanics, like spells, or like searching for water or ore ... you need to identify where the resource is (after harvested it will despawn and change position) ... and maybe also some fun mechanic where you need some time to harvest the resource (like the hacking on Eve) and of course the right skill level for the quality.
I think could be fun, I love exploration.
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Re: How to fix localized resources and get players out of ba

Postby NotJimmy97 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:52 pm

I definitely think that localized resources should be incorporated into cheese production such that it doesn't end up being the "be-all-end-all" for bulk food production as it is currently. It definitely wouldn't hurt to disincentivize players from turning their bases into highly armored dairies as they often are.

At this point, maybe what I'm suggesting isn't best named a 'localized resource' anymore since, being temporary, it would lack a permanent 'locale' as it implies. They're more like instanced, rare objects that are separate from foraging. Maybe call them artifacts or discoveries.

But I guess the crux of my idea is that, just wandering around, a new player would have close to the same ability to find these neat things as someone from Dis or the Hedgehugs. A great equalizer perhaps?
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Re: How to fix localized resources and get players out of ba

Postby stya » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:06 am

NotJimmy97 wrote: Localized resources have effectively exacerbated the problem described above. Villages will wall-off any ice spires, salt pools...


Please senpaï teach me how to build walls on water.
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Re: How to fix localized resources and get players out of ba

Postby NotJimmy97 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:44 am

stya wrote:
NotJimmy97 wrote: Localized resources have effectively exacerbated the problem described above. Villages will wall-off any ice spires, salt pools...


Please senpaï teach me how to build walls on water.

Yeah, that was a mistake on my part. I guess salt doesn't count, but the general idea is you mark down where all the nearby salt pools are, then plant an alt to collect from them. That's basically the same as placing down walls/claims since nobody else is going to be able to use the node.
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Re: How to fix localized resources and get players out of ba

Postby viznew » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:11 am

i also feel we dont need this current road system i can get world wide with out ever really being at risk(what are thay gonna do ko me lol), but a proper (have to somewhat travel the road (at least more then now)) road can mabye even add some sort protection to the road but takes auth and enough to make a dent, highways and "wagon" stops could pop up, the current roads are brilliant for a easy death world and with ko mabye can open those options some
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Re: How to fix localized resources and get players out of ba

Postby NotJimmy97 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:15 am

viznew wrote:i also feel we dont need this current road system i can get world wide with out ever really being at risk(what are thay gonna do ko me lol), but a proper (have to somewhat travel the road (at least more then now)) road can mabye even add some sort protection to the road but takes auth and enough to make a dent, highways and "wagon" stops could pop up, the current roads are brilliant for a easy death world and with ko mabye can open those options some

I don't think KO necessarily needs to exist if you create enough incentives for players to leave their bases. As I understand it (and I may be wrong), the reason why permadeath was abolished was to push players to explore the outside world more. But as it turns out, the reason people aren't exploring the world and staying outside isn't out of fear of death, but rather from a lack of reasons to do so. This game is time-consuming by design, and people aren't going to waste time outside if they have work to do in the village. So the best solution, as I see it, is to make it so more of the work they do in the village is tied in with exploration outside.

I've played in a sizable village this world, where fear of being ganked outside the base isn't a significant threat. We mitigate that risk by not sending crafters out. The lack of permadeath has not incentivized me to leave my base.
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Re: How to fix localized resources and get players out of ba

Postby Gensokyo » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:49 am

stya wrote:
NotJimmy97 wrote: Localized resources have effectively exacerbated the problem described above. Villages will wall-off any ice spires, salt pools...


Please senpaï teach me how to build walls on water.

Salt pools do appear on mountains and are piss easy to claim, and there's a specific spot in the world that has claimed two salt pools that are located in shallow water by blocking off the entrance from water trough a claim and knarrs.
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Re: How to fix localized resources and get players out of ba

Postby LadyV » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:39 pm

No I can't agree. All you will do is make he warrior factions roaming hoards chasing after the resources they need. You will end up with much more bloodshed and fewer players due to it.

The only thing I have ever agreed to when this topic comes up is the ability to degrade a node from over use, pollution, or over population of an area that hurts it.
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Re: How to fix localized resources and get players out of ba

Postby infectedking » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:37 pm

What about those players who don't like to leave the walls, the ones who love to just enjoy their farming/taking care of animal (production simulator). Those ideas would kill those sort of players motivation to play as much. Myself for example enjoy living inside a wall, not because no incentive to go outside and do things, but because I'd prefer the whole "leave me alone to watch my quality increase" sort of style, which is fine... not for everyone but it's how quite a few players do that sort of thing.
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