Road mechanic rework / remove teleportation

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: Road mechanic rework / remove teleportation

Postby Lunarius_Haberdash » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:15 pm

Everything in the original post, every little thing.

Incidentally, this is one way to make the quality of items matter more over the long run too. SURE you want that Q2700 quality item from the community fair, but are you willing to make the trip? There's a village selling Q1000 or even Q1500 much closer to you, and really it's better than what you have now. (Can I just say the current Q of everything nauseates me?)

Everything I could possibly say about this topic really seems to have already been said in this thread, so I just want to throw my support behind it.

Some counterpoints for Loftar's comment about 'encounters with people passing at high speed who aren't responding because their client is running in the background while they traverse great distances' doesn't take a lot of things into account. Namely:

1 - These encounters HAPPEN, the unknown player alarm goes off, you switch back to find out if it's just a person wandering by, someone new to help out, someone who hates you and you better be on your game, etc. You *WILL* check your client when these encounters happen because you WILL want to be safe. Let's be honest, almost no one uses the vanilla client so EVERYONE has these alarms.

2 - Animals animals everywhere. For a significant portion of the early game, you're going to be worried about badgers and boars and bears and other hostile nature critters messing your shit up. You will encounter these while traveling overworld, encounters you completely skip while teleporting, just like those in 1.

Yes, Loftar, encounters with people who are AFK and running along their path on the way to their destination, even with the client in the background, makes the world feel more alive and less alone and your assessment that people just 'wouldn't interact' isn't accurate at all. a
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Re: Road mechanic rework / remove teleportation

Postby Granger » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:07 pm

On further thinking about this idea I come to the conclusion that it would be better to build (bidirectional between markers) paths forward as we're used to but trails (the unidirectional roads) backwards.

So instead of the current system where you build a road in the direction it should lead toward by extending you now would connect it starting from the destination, which makes you leave a trail toward where the road is going to. This would simplify branch off an existing trail (=road) as the new extension would simply point toward the junction where it's created from (which then already knows in which direction the trail continues), so newly placed markers that are linked to a trail will always point toward the trail destination.

This would lead to multiple roads toward rome naturally coming together where they start to share the same path, as the ability to upgrade a marker to a junction (if needed) to branch out a road (wchich creates a new sub-path leading from a not yet connected place toward the branch point on which one then continues to follow the path to the destination) anywhere on the existing graph, without impacting existing connections, would be easier than to create a parallel road.

This should lead to nice organic roads.
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Re: Road mechanic rework / remove teleportation

Postby itworkss » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:04 pm

This is the single thing I would love to see change in the new world.

Roads need some serious work, and there have been a load of great ideas in this whole thread.

Removable of fast travel, limited to charter stones, would be amazing for the new world!
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Re: Road mechanic rework / remove teleportation

Postby Axucs » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:33 pm

by how much I don’t understand, whether it is necessary to create a new topic or write in old ones that affect the aspect, I am writing here.

In my opinion, teleportation on roads if thay are completely inside the village should not give weakness
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Re: Road mechanic rework / remove teleportation

Postby wonder-ass » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:42 pm

you THINK it would be amazing but it wouldnt, it wouldnt at all.
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Re: Road mechanic rework / remove teleportation

Postby julian12it » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:56 pm

Removing of teleportation and forcing people to spend hours in walking will KILL global trading and interactions among players. They are some of you that just want to walk around and play PvE, but you have to take into account that without community, things get boring. Having CF host events, whether it be casual or for holidays, brought many players together and caused new connections. Put your fedoras down about "hardcore haven" and realize it benefits it brings to the game and not specific people.
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Re: Road mechanic rework / remove teleportation

Postby Granger » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:14 pm

julian12it wrote:Removing of teleportation and forcing people to spend hours in walking will KILL global trading and interactions among players. They are some of you that just want to walk around and play PvE, but you have to take into account that without community, things get boring. Having CF host events, whether it be casual or for holidays, brought many players together and caused new connections. Put your fedoras down about "hardcore haven" and realize it benefits it brings to the game and not specific people.


I think the premise you started with is off (taking hours) as I was able to cross the world using a horse, boat and raft in roughly 3 hours while traversing unknown terrain. Given a central market being somewhat central in regard to its location would cut that to ~1.5h, being able to follow an existing road (would remove backtracking and using a raft) should cut that to ~1h, the speed boost in combination with a nicely paved road should cut that in half again and the average user living an average distance away should cut away another half of that.

Bottom line would be ~15 minutes travel time that, regarding your interest in interactions among players, could be less boring than you might fear (though you might learn to fear other things, but for that there's strength in numbers... so travel with your friends).

Also killing global trade wouldn't be that bad of a thing, as that would give local trade hubs - and merchants to trade beween these - a chance to prosper.
So no, I don't agree with your conclusion about the game being any better by every place in the world being reachable within seconds.

Apart from that: you solely reacted to the keyword 'teleportation'... any comments on the rest?
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Re: Road mechanic rework / remove teleportation

Postby julian12it » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:33 pm

Granger wrote:I think the premise you started with is off (taking hours) as I was able to cross the world using a horse, boat and raft in roughly 3 hours while traversing unknown terrain. Given a central market being somewhat central in regard to its location would cut that to ~1.5h, being able to follow an existing road (would remove backtracking and using a raft) should cut that to ~1h, the speed boost in combination with a nicely paved road should cut that in half again and the average user living an average distance away should cut away another half of that


Sure you were able to trek the world in three hours with a horse, boat, and raft. Now you didn't mention the quality of the horse or if you used multiple horses in the process but noobs and people early start of the world won't have access to such pony power. A central market would be ideal in every scenario possible, but I find it unlikely for to be much of a difference when introducing oceans (I view that neighboring continents will have local trading spots). Giving people a speed buff when following a milestone might sound like an ideal plan, but it can also introduce abuse in the aspect of PVP. Also, for get about a nicely paved road having decay implemented.

Granger wrote:Bottom line would be ~15 minutes travel time that, regarding your interest in interactions among players, could be less boring than you might fear (though you might learn to fear other things, but for that there's strength in numbers... so travel with your friends).

Would be more than 15 minutes for people to travel to markets with the introduction oceans and having people acquire larger ships. I'm all for teleportation, a neat thing would be to remove village charter stones (in terms of Intake TP) and provide a realm Coronation Stone teleport that can be used across oceans. Have it be more expensive, cost travel weariness, and only one per realm. Villages can use charter stones for spawning of characters and to teleport to realm stones. In terms of roads, roads are going to be useful in traveling large continents, placing travel weariness in the current system would do it justice.
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Re: Road mechanic rework / remove teleportation

Postby pppp » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:37 pm

I'm putting this idea in the common thread, slightly offtopic in regards to current discussion twist. If it would do better in separate thread, so be it.

The primary design objective is to allow to reuse a road, allow people use existing roads as a part of their own roads without affecting earlier users. The secondary design objective is to enable roads to affect landscape.

Implementation:
- allow initiating fast travel from any milestone (requested multiple times)
- remove the concept of road ownership (by owners of either end)
- instead introduce a milestone claim, which is recharged by 1 point by each incoming travel and by another point by each ougoing travel, double that for a crossroads, there is no explicit claim owner,
- a milestone (or crossroads) would lose 1 point of auth daily and hold 30 days worth of auth
- anyone can upgrade a milestone to crossroads; a wooden crossroad sign can hold 3 directions, a stone crossroad sign can hold 8 directions; directions are defined as N, NW, W, SW, S, SE, E, NE plus optional label it would not be possible to link two roads in the same octant, but if a direction slot is occupied one can link at the milestone occupying the slot
- upgrading or linking to an existing crossroads is not considered vandalism but removing a link is, as destroying a sign is
- allow naming of crossroads and milestones; a default name for a milestone is <crossroads - <dir> - ##> where crossroads is the name of crossroads it has been extended from, dir is direction on initial crossroads and ## is a milestone number; only crossroads can be renamed when upgrading from a milestone.
- a road can be named but it is optional, can be done when connecting first milestone (as it is now) or via vandalism,
- a direction on a milestone is named after crossroads at the far end if one exists, it shall be filled-in when the chain of signs is terminated by crossroads,
- enable random stomping unpaved terrain to dirt at every use of the road akin to decay hit (suggested before), plus a tile or two behind milestone hot spot to avoid ugly unstomped patches (works like rounded line ends in any painting program)
- enable random vine removal by the same decay hit - important for keeping paved roads in good shape
- enable turning stomped ground to default paving if road auth is fully charged (that is auth of both neighbouring milestones) - this one is really disputable, I am ok with letting players do the paving
- introduce memorizing itineraries, similar to memorizing charterstones, limited base number of memorized itineraries for a new char, more capacity with skills and credos
- introduce written itineraries, that can be made from a memorized one and can be both used to memorize and to follow
- itineraries will became obsolete as road network is modified, memorized itineraries should use server-side object id's so they keep working until the road is broken, written itineraries should use crossroads names so they can be trolled by renaming crossroads and can be also readable as a text so one can just follow it as a guide.
- itineraries can be used on a crossroads to follow them
- itineraries can be memorized by following them if there is free memory slot
- an empty parchment can be used on crossroads dialog box to start writing an itinerary and then on every subsequent crossroads to add it to the list, in this manner it can be done inconsistent, screw the user,
- an empty parchment can be used on memorized crossroads list to write itinerary at once, it should be as correct as memorized itinerary is
- crossroads can be memorized as a starting, middle or ending waypoint along with direction one needs to take to go further, directions on a milestone can be memorized too but it is useful only if one intends to start or end travel in the middle of nowhere,
- optionally a dialog box when initiating a travel to define at which milestone to stop
- optionally underground biome tiles should be stomped too
- optionally higher daily drain for stone roadsigns/crossroads and lower for wooden ones, while having much larger capacity on stone signs.
- optionally introduce travel weariness for fast travel (suggested before), possibly less if the road section is paved - it would add to server load, but it can be pre-calculated for unloaded map tiles


The expected effect is that existing roads will be reused and kept maintained by players using them. Roads can be griefed by blocking them or vandalizing signs as it functions now. Additionally a milestone sign can be killed without leaving scents by walling it off and forcing people to walk around. Some additional griefing can be done by inserting crossroads named identically as crossroads further downstream so people using written itineraries are directed wrong way.


A crossroads sign would look like:
Aurora
East Sovhoz Sunny <follow> <travel> <remove> <memorize/add>
West Red Wood Abbey <follow> <travel> <remove> <memorize/add>
Southeast House Reindeer <follow> <travel> <remove> <memorize/add>
<list of memorized itineraries starting from this particular sign>

A milestone related to second road on above example would look like:
Aurora - W - 45
East Aurora <follow> <travel> <remove> <memorize/add>
West Red Wood Abbey <follow> <travel> <remove> <memorize/add>
<list of memorized itineraries starting from this particular sign, if any>

An itinerary would look like:
From Aurora to Viddarrheim
Aurora: West
Red Wood Abbey: NorthEast

Another itinerary would look like:
From Aurora to <some questgiver>
Aurora West
Aurora - West - 34: NorthWest





A biased collection of arbitrarily cherrypicked quotes:
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=59271&p=757705&hilit=roads&sid=421c053f8cb3a8fc1abb22dff4a190ca#p757721
A lot in common with this one: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=59271&p=757705&hilit=roads&sid=421c053f8cb3a8fc1abb22dff4a190ca#p757722
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=61143&p=778014&hilit=roads&sid=109117b15c8ddac89fe51a5709e6a582#p778313
My own old post and a couple of following posts: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=61287&hilit=roads&start=40#p781141
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Re: Road mechanic rework / remove teleportation

Postby Granger » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:54 pm

The details on how the suggested new road mechanic could work can be found on page 2 (as linked in the OP), please concentrate your feedback on the actual mechanic to set these up and use them (regardless of the speed 'travel' would happen at in the end).

We all don't want the road litter of the last worlds again, do we?
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