A plea for decay

[Kamekono]

Lately I've been talking to a lot of players about the current world, and many complained about the insane amount of abandoned stuff around. While a new would would temporarily fix the problem, I believe there is something much more important to do to avoid getting here again: improve the decay system.

How did we end up in this situation? The world has been running for a year and a half, and with it lots of player have enjoyed their time and then quit, leaving behind everything they had. That meant a lot of claims and villages abandoned for weeks or months, spammed across the entire map. But what's the big deal if there are abandoned places? Scavenging is fun, isn't it? Well...

1st. Lots of these places are, of course, in great places to settle. You could take over but, especially for lonely players or small parties, often it takes a lot more work to fix up a place than it would to build it from scratch.
2nd. The amount of mid-high quality items in it kinda ruins the game. While at first it's awesome to find all those tools and items, in a couple of days you'll realise you don't have (and probably never will) the skills to properly use it or even improve it over time. What's the point of making a tanning tub q20, when the nearby ruins have 10 tubs of q200?
3rd. The amount of fields make finding seeds unchallenging. When you first start, finding the seeds you lack is kinda like a scavenger hunt! Will I finally get that wheat, or will it be pumpkins again? Now you just walk around 10 minutes, and find every crop in existence (except for leek, nobody likes leek) of such high quality that your new farmer alt will never achieve.
4th. The underground has become a highway, more than a mine. You finally start digging your minehole, and end up in an infinite series of tunnels that go straight for so long that even your horse gets tired of walking them.
5th. And if you give up and decide to take over that village, hope the idol Is still there: if it's not, you'll have to take down all those banners yourself!

Those are just the first points that come to mind, but I could go on. The idea is that abandoned places don't just trash the map, they ruin the fresh start experience so many of us enjoy.

So what could be done? Here's a few ideas:
1st. Claims (private and village) should decay much faster. If the player is inactive for a week, we don't want them to lose everything. But for a month? That means he's not playing at all, get out of here! No more study tables filled with poppyflowers to keep that claim active a couple more months.
2nd. Once the claim decays, allowing anyone to act inside, there should be a short delay (let's say 15 days tops) before the items (including the claim stake) will start decaying too. No more places abandoned 10 months ago, still there only filled with empty cupboards and drying racks.
3rd. Crops should decay, at least in dead claims and wilderness. Not sure why they won't, but again field plants shouldn't stay there forever.
4th. Mine supports outside claims should decay, and cause cave-in. It could take more for a stone or metal one to decay, and less for a wooden one, but all should disappear after a while. Give them a month of life, if they are not repaired, they collapse and (by chance) could cause cave-ins. Let's refresh those caves! Also, those cave-ins should be removable, and actually "spawn" cave walls, not just those boulders we are used to.
5th. As per point number 1, village idols and banners should decay after a while if the village is out of authority. Banners could decay within a few days, statues in maybe a week, the idol maybe a 3 weeks later. If the idol is destroyed, the process should start immediately. Again, no more ruined villages staying there forever!

In the end, while right now a fresh world would fix the problem for now, stuff like this would prevent this problem from coming back. Both new players and old ones could have a fresh start finding plenty of wilderness, still having some scavenging opportunity, without getting frustrated that nothing they can craft will ever reach that quality level, making crafting and improving skills tedious rather than fun (no more feelings like "Cool, I upgraded my anvil to q40!").

Think about it.

[Aceb]

So what could be done? Here's a few ideas:
1st. Claims (private and village) should decay much faster. If the player is inactive for a week, we don't want them to lose everything. But for a month? That means he's not playing at all, get out of here! No more study tables filled with poppyflowers to keep that claim active a couple more months.
2nd. Once the claim decays, allowing anyone to act inside, there should be a short delay (let's say 15 days tops) before the items (including the claim stake) will start decaying too. No more places abandoned 10 months ago, still there only filled with empty cupboards and drying racks.
3rd. Crops should decay, at least in dead claims and wilderness. Not sure why they won't, but again field plants shouldn't stay there forever.
4th. Mine supports outside claims should decay, and cause cave-in. It could take more for a stone or metal one to decay, and less for a wooden one, but all should disappear after a while. Give them a month of life, if they are not repaired, they collapse and (by chance) could cause cave-ins. Let's refresh those caves! Also, those cave-ins should be removable, and actually "spawn" cave walls, not just those boulders we are used to.
5th. As per point number 1, village idols and banners should decay after a while if the village is out of authority. Banners could decay within a few days, statues in maybe a week, the idol maybe a 3 weeks later. If the idol is destroyed, the process should start immediately. Again, no more ruined villages staying there forever!

1. The decay timing is good enough. 2 months or something like that if I remember, makes the free items hyenas away long enough for opportunist to try and siege the place down for treasures (If owners are inactive, nothing stops them really)
2. It is as slow as it should be.
3. This is true, maybe half cut of Q, but remember that after a month or two, those crops are likely to fall behind much.
4. Granger and alikes often proposed a cave-decay or something like this. Not against but solid Mine supports have no reason to decay for long time tbh.
5. Doesn't matter really, can be bashed if I recall?

[sMartins]

I'm agree with OP.

[Attas]

I agree with OP. I don't think any medium-sized hermitage or village abandoned in early world has completely disappeared, to the point that no one can say there was something there.

I don't know why decay doesn't happen underground. Is it a server issue or working as intended?

Unclaimed crops should totally decay, not only because of quality but also because it's really ugly to see huge fields of a monoculture without anyone taking care but ready to be harvested.

[Kamekono]

So what could be done? Here's a few ideas:
1st. Claims (private and village) should decay much faster. If the player is inactive for a week, we don't want them to lose everything. But for a month? That means he's not playing at all, get out of here! No more study tables filled with poppyflowers to keep that claim active a couple more months.
2nd. Once the claim decays, allowing anyone to act inside, there should be a short delay (let's say 15 days tops) before the items (including the claim stake) will start decaying too. No more places abandoned 10 months ago, still there only filled with empty cupboards and drying racks.
3rd. Crops should decay, at least in dead claims and wilderness. Not sure why they won't, but again field plants shouldn't stay there forever.
4th. Mine supports outside claims should decay, and cause cave-in. It could take more for a stone or metal one to decay, and less for a wooden one, but all should disappear after a while. Give them a month of life, if they are not repaired, they collapse and (by chance) could cause cave-ins. Let's refresh those caves! Also, those cave-ins should be removable, and actually "spawn" cave walls, not just those boulders we are used to.
5th. As per point number 1, village idols and banners should decay after a while if the village is out of authority. Banners could decay within a few days, statues in maybe a week, the idol maybe a 3 weeks later. If the idol is destroyed, the process should start immediately. Again, no more ruined villages staying there forever!

1. The decay timing is good enough. 2 months or something like that if I remember, makes the free items hyenas away long enough for opportunist to try and siege the place down for treasures (If owners are inactive, nothing stops them really)
2. It is as slow as it should be.
3. This is true, maybe half cut of Q, but remember that after a month or two, those crops are likely to fall behind much.
4. Granger and alikes often proposed a cave-decay or something like this. Not against but solid Mine supports have no reason to decay for long time tbh.
5. Doesn't matter really, can be bashed if I recall?

You clearly missed some points:
2. As of right now, it's doesn't happen. Once the claim is dead, it will stay there until someone manually destroys it. Even on dead claims stuff doesn't decay, meaning you'll have animal corpses from ages ago, and all the other stuff still around. What I'm saying is to add a timer after which a dead claim actually breaks itself (decay), so the place becomes effectively unclaimed again, and the stuff formerly in the claim starts decaying as per the normal process in wilderness.
3. True, but new/fresh players don't really care. Finding a field of q500 flax won't make it less relevant if someone in the world has flax q1000. The issue with crops, other than aesthetic, is that with the amount and quality you find, it completely removes the need for players to go gather seeds and improve them (or trade for them).
5. They can, but as per dead claims, all the stuff inside stays there forever, making abandoned villages one of the most "polluting" kind of ruins in the map, given their size.

While none of these are essential, I believe they would improve the longevity of the world, and we would hear less of people asking for a reset because the map is spammed with ruins.

An alternative would also be to add some kind of actual "ruin" thingy, kinda like the stuff you find on beaches, that you can "search", giving you some items and disappearing. But that's another topic, and a lot more complicated to balance IMO

[Kitsune30]

So unless something changed with the most recent update, claims do what you want them to do, sort of.

1. Personal Claims will fall within 2 months and most Villages should do the same too. Perhaps a mechanic could be added where not only does LP have to be gained by the owner/members have to physically be within its boundaries. I know Personal claims have this restriction on creation at least.

2. Personal Claims have the Presence system which works similar to a Village's Authority system. Once the Presence has dropped (takes 2 months to occur), the claim is essentially not there. Decay rates resume, crime is turned off, even the claim idol becomes bashable by hand, its soak is removed.

3. That would be interesting. But to fit with the more realistic styles of the game the crops should die off completely. Maybe mark the tiles nearby for a higher chance at Wild Windsown Weed or a new foragible that only appears near old farm land sites.

4. I agree Mine Supports should decay, but being underground they will decay incredibly slowly. This could even open up some new game mechanics. Wood would have to decay fastest, then Stone, then Metal, and all 3 could be treated with tar to slow their decay rates down. However if caves can refresh it will create scenarios where we start mining the mines. No more tunneling to find things, just keep smashing down that old mine shaft endlessly, even if it won't guarantee the same ores.

5. I think this can be set to match Personal Claims. Once Authority has dropped below its threshold (50k) then the claim falls. As authority continues to be consumed then new effects happen.
Authority Remaining : Effects
50K : Claim powers down, decay rates begin. Decay applies to everything, even the idol/banners/statues.
40K : Banners lose their soak completely. Idol at 80% soak.
30K : Idol at 60% soak.
20K : Statues lose soak completely. Idol at 40% soak.
10k: Idol at 20% soak.
0 : Idol loses soak completely.

If the Idol is destroyed before banners/statues then their soak drops to 0 (being without a Village) and can have multiplied damage applied, though regular decay will remove them eventually.

However personally, I would prefer if both Personal and Village claims could be stolen rather than decay away into nothingness, but that's something else.

Anecdotally: I've been exploring the world around my new character lately and while I am finding lots of ruins of settlements, I am also seeing houses and other structures decaying into nothingness. Just today I found a house I was at last week was completely gone and all the stuff formerly inside had massive decay damage as well. Sure you can see the paving tiles that the grass hasn't managed to reclaim, but most of the place is gone or nearly gone. And this is a place that's off the main roads. Ruins on major pathways are completely picked clean pretty quickly once the walls fall. But these have been Personal claims, which do decay once they go inactive, I don't know if Villages do that yet.

[MagicManICT]

I would recommend some research on HOW decay mechanics work, what is affected, etc for anyone interested in this topic. Just reading through the posts here I see a lot of misinformation or lack of knowledge of current game mechanics that have been posted about. I might suggest reading through Granger's group of posts on the matter, specifically the one about world decay mechanics. viewtopic.php?f=48&t=52170&hilit=plea+decay#p690498

Yes, claim poles, as well as other authority objects, decay. It's slow as they have a lot of HP and how an object decays is dependent on that object. Hit box size matters a LOT. Different objects take more or less damage relative to total hit points--cupboards decay in one hit, but walls can take months or weeks. Objects on any claim with no authority will decay and continue to decay until placed on or covered by an active claim.

No, there is no decay in caves. This is by design. Requests have been made to change this. Last I read, jorb is at least wavering on the issue. Related, requests have been made to change the way trees function, thus affecting all trees--those in caves as well as above ground--to improve regrowth.

Finally, I don't commit a heavy amount of time to actually playing Haven right now. I've done my "deep dive" in the past, and as much as I enjoy playing the game, there are several "small things" I've discussed that annoy me to the point of not wanting to go full OCD on this game. As I do play it infrequently, I don't want my work to disappear in a few weeks time, as I've been known to take more than that off from playing. So fuck you and your idea that this game shouldn't support "infrequent players." If you don't want them in your area, forcibly remove them. (I should probably state that nicely, but I want to get the point across.)

[sMartins]

Nice "moderation".

As the OP said, the progression in the game right now is messed up once the world get older .... this is a problem with the game design, not a matter of mechanics or how long it should take to decay, etc... those are things that can be discussed. But right now it's easier to go find stuff you need than building it yourself, and this is a major flaw that need to be addressed. Scavenge and finding cool stuff should be a lucky day, not a mundane day ... even for new players.

[pppp]

Yeah. Also make trading with established players bannable. /s
Otherwise there is no way to make newbs live in a time capsule.

Rummaging in ruins is fun.

[Kamekono]

I would recommend some research on HOW decay mechanics work, what is affected, etc for anyone interested in this topic. Just reading through the posts here I see a lot of misinformation or lack of knowledge of current game mechanics that have been posted about. I might suggest reading through Granger's group of posts on the matter, specifically the one about world decay mechanics. viewtopic.php?f=48&t=52170&hilit=plea+decay#p690498

Yes, claim poles, as well as other authority objects, decay. It's slow as they have a lot of HP and how an object decays is dependent on that object. Hit box size matters a LOT. Different objects take more or less damage relative to total hit points--cupboards decay in one hit, but walls can take months or weeks. Objects on any claim with no authority will decay and continue to decay until placed on or covered by an active claim.

No, there is no decay in caves. This is by design. Requests have been made to change this. Last I read, jorb is at least wavering on the issue. Related, requests have been made to change the way trees function, thus affecting all trees--those in caves as well as above ground--to improve regrowth.

Finally, I don't commit a heavy amount of time to actually playing Haven right now. I've done my "deep dive" in the past, and as much as I enjoy playing the game, there are several "small things" I've discussed that annoy me to the point of not wanting to go full OCD on this game. As I do play it infrequently, I don't want my work to disappear in a few weeks time, as I've been known to take more than that off from playing. So fuck you and your idea that this game shouldn't support "infrequent players." If you don't want them in your area, forcibly remove them. (I should probably state that nicely, but I want to get the point across.)

A moderator insulting a user for expressing his ideas, in the "Critique & Ideas" forum non the less. I thought I was dealing with adults interested in having a discussion about ideas, I clearly was wrong since you felt the need to resort to insults to make your point.

For the sake of the topic, however, I'll quickly reply. I'm not against casual players, I'm one of them usually, but I do believe that if you can't find 1 minute to login and refill your claim in weeks, the place should fall. And thanks to study tables, you could keep a place up for months just by logging in once every few weeks, refilling it with poppy flowers or some other easy to make curios. So don't pretend this would destroy the game for casuals, because it really takes no effort in keeping it up.