Satiation and FEP

[MooCow]

The current satiation has received many requests to update/remove/fix
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=61229
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=58108
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=58101
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=57669

A lot of this frustration come from the system being both overly complicated, and unnecessarily punishing. This is compounded by the fact that once the system is 'mastered' it allows players to essentially avoid the system entirely. New players are punished and old players forget how bad it was. Nothing in the game explains the value of tea/milk/wine/beer and having the game punish you for not consuming large amounts of specific foods (drinks) in a specific pattern it literally anti-fun.

The root of the problem is the player is punished for playing the game 'wrong' and isn't given any chance of retrying. The player eats a bunch of Blueberries and then the game tells them they messed up and have to play with the consequences for weeks and weeks.

My goals with these changes is to do the following:
-Remove intensives for stat alts
-Make the satiation system easy to learn and understand
-Make the system feel rewarding, not punishing

1: Make FEP required for the next level based on the last level gained, not the Highest level
New players (myself included) are intimidated by the notion of raising one stat too high, and making it difficult for them to progress. Punishing the player for having for having one stat too high ultimately just makes people create alts for various tasks. Need high charisma? get a charisma alt. There seems to be that this notion that letting a player get high stats in everything is bad, but this is completely false. A huge portion of the player base plays hermits, and they require to have high stats in everything. This buff would effect them the most. Villagers don't need all their stats to be high, hermits do. Imagine how many alts people would make if your skill costs were based on your highest skill.

Additionally, a long long time ago, there was a certain stat (psy) that was very difficult to get. At least then the FEP punishment was interesting. You could make special magical alts that were good at making jewelry, while everybody else sucked.

2: Satiation is always applied, applied based on the percentage of your FEP bar filled, and applied Satiation is cut in half when you level.
Example 1 FEP
FEP 0/100 Satiation Forage 100% I eat a blueberry that has the really bad satiation of 300% Forage and gives me 10 FEP (10/100 * 300% = 30%)
FEP 10/100 Satiation Forage 70% I eat an Ant Empress that has a good station of 60% Forage and gives me 100 FEP ([100 * 70%]/100 * 60% = 42%)
FEP 80/100 Satiation Forage 28% I eat a boar spit-roast that has an average station of 100% Meat and gives me 20 FEP (20/100 * 100% = 20%)
FEP 100/100 Satiation Forage 28% Meat 80% I now get a level in Intelligence
FEP 0/INT Satiation Forage 64% Meat 90%

Example 2 FEP
FEP 0/10 Satiation Meat 100% I eat a boar spit-roast that has an average station of 100% Meat and gives me 20 FEP, I can only get 10 of the 20 FEP (10/10 * 100% = 100%)
FEP 10/10 Satiation Meat 0% I now get a level in Strength
FEP 0/STR Satiation Meat 50%

This makes Satiation easy to understand and greatly rewards the player that can eat different types of high quality food. Instead of people trying to get drinks as soon as possible, they might try to diversify their food, and maybe actually eat fish for once.

3: Combine variety bonus, and Satiations into one thing, by making the base level of gains 150%
People like bonuses, physiologically humans are predisposed to seek bonuses and avoid penalties. People really do feel good when they are told they are getting rewarded even when the reward is mostly an illusion. Just having the Satiation punish the player (<100%) will make them sad. It doesn't actually matter what the numbers are, people like to see it as a bonus.

This change to base FEP would change the examples as such
Example 1 FEP
FEP 0/100 Satiation Forage 150% I eat a blueberry that has the really bad satiation of 300% Forage and gives me 6.66 FEP ([6.66 * 150%]/100 * 300% = 30%)
FEP 10/100 Satiation Forage 120% I eat an Ant Empress that has a good station of 60% Forage and gives me 66.6 FEP ([66.6 * 120%]/100 * 60% = 48%)
FEP 90/100 Satiation Forage 72% I eat a boar spit-roast that has an average station of 100% Meat and gives me 13.3 FEP but i am capped at getting 10 FEP (10/100 * 100% = 10%)
FEP 100/100 Satiation Forage 72% Meat 140% I now get a level in Intelligence
FEP 0/INT Satiation Forage 111% Meat 145%

Example 2 FEP
FEP 0/10 Satiation Meat 150% I eat a boar spit-roast that has an average station of 100% Meat and gives me 13.3 FEP, I can only get 10 FEP (10/10 * 100% = 100%)
FEP 10/10 Satiation Meat 50% I now get a level in Strength
FEP 0/STR Satiation Meat 100%

If players are already getting a bonus from eating different things why have Satiation at all? I believe that Satiation is more interesting than the variety bonus. Getting a bonus for eating 5 different kinds of steak shouldn't be the same as eating a well balanced meal.

[ctopolon4]

current system are easy to understand (just spend few minutes on wiki or found someone to explain it to U).
its reward u with x1.25^n multiplier, when u understand it and use drinks.


atm here is chance that food satiate some type of food
(if u lucky u could eat 100 items and dont get satiation, if u unlucky u have to drink bucket of alcohol to raise it back to 125% after 5-10 items)
at the current system u could get x20-40 FEP multiplier and <1% hunger from food
(so if food gives 5% hunger u have to eat 2000+ items to fill ur 100% hungerLVL bar) (if u need 1.25^n multiplier from satiations u have to drink alot)
if u wanna nice stats grow u have to eat at max multiplier always

[Fostik]

FEP based satiation - is a good idea, but the question is how to make specified characters then?

[Granger]

IMHO too complicated.

Just track what's consumed (FIFO list the size as amount of total attributes) and reduce the FEP a kind gives by 1% for each identical item currently in the list.
End salt eating (turn into spice), turn drinks into temporary buffs and give downsides to overconsumption of spices & drinks (salt: high blood pressure, pepper: stomach burn, milk: diarrhea, booze: blackout with faceplant, tea: kidney stones).

[Luanes]

I would like to merge all threads about the topic :X

This is one I've created before:
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=59686&p=762928#p762928

Will link yours on it too

[MagicManICT]

I would like to merge all threads about the topic :X

Moderator commentary:

I'm inclined to agree, but in this case, I think it's probably not a good idea. There's several threads on the matter, each one I've read in the past generally agrees on the flaw, but everyone seems to have their own point of view on how to fix it.

Might not be a bad idea to have an index post for now on the matter, at least for the players wanting to discuss the issue. Jorb, at least, keeps a personal list of forum discussions to keep an eye on. (I'm not sure what he uses, but he's shown his listing of feedback he wants to keep track of in his live streams.)

IMHO too complicated.

Yeah, any solution should be fairly simple to understand, even if there are subtle complexities to making it work better.

current system are easy to understand (just spend few minutes on wiki or found someone to explain it to U).

Just because it's "easy to understand" via outside knowledge doesn't make it easy to understand or learn. That also makes it a "poorly designed system." Satiations were a reasonable means of combating spamming the same food types until the drink buffs were added. I didn't like the system from the start as I've always thought the proper solution was better food balancing--nerf the stuff that's going too high, buff stuff that isn't getting used at all. Then there's the issue of getting the drinks. Wine and beer are (fairly) easy given a bit of time. Milk isn't too bad--at worst, milk wild aurochs, and very easy if you breed cows. Tea, though... you have to trade for seeds or a bush or get lucky on an abandoned claim to find a bush with seeds or leaves that will be worth bringing back. Even then, wine and beer might be a month into the game before you get any quantity. You want to capture a new players attention in the first several hours, not a couple months away.