Critique: Oceans & Continents

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Critique: Oceans & Continents

Postby DDDsDD999 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:32 pm

So jorb stated World 11 was going to have a unique world generation with the formation of continents and oceans. The way I understood it was the world be composed of some amount of continents, with oceans inbetween that can only be crossed by knarrs, charterstones and roads won't let you get to new continents. I have a few concerns with that.

1. Knarrs
Having to interact with knarrs in a pvp scenario is completely stupid. What happens is everyone on the knarrs target the other knarr's driver, and have attacks queued on him. The instant the knarrs get close enough, the drivers take about 10 hits instantly, typically getting ko'd/killed. The drivers won't be able to port out of the driver's spot for around 40 seconds, leaving their riders as sitting ducks in the middle of who knows how huge of a body of water. Everyone is forced to grab boats out of the knarr or swim, and if the other knarr driver is still up then that entire group is just fucked as they slowly take their turns getting hit by 10 people.

2. Pvp implications
If it takes 30 minutes or something crazy to go from one continent to another, the pvpers probably won't bother going to another continent, just for the opportunity to camp outside other pvpers spots and fight them on their home turf. Not only because of the inconvenience, but safe palis will be even more necessary. Not being on your home continent could be a death sentence. The people whose turf you're on likely have their entire fleet of knarrs all over the place, ready to dunk you in knarr combat (point 1) if you try to boat away. Which means you need to maintain safe palis on any continent you plan on going to. It just makes actual fights between people who want to pvp seem more and more unfeasible, and instead those people will just run around terrorizing anyone on their continent with no fear on account of the massive home turf advantage.

3. Island defence
Depending on continent size, I could easily see factions deciding to just wall of an entire continent and constantly patrol it with bots. Attempting to defend a siege camp when you're severely limited on land space on someone's home turf, is already hard with people just weaving in and out of their walls with visitor debuff. Now you are in the middle of a huge body of water, where the enemy has a huge fleet of knarrs, basically requiring naval combat, which goes back to point 1, where naval combat is stupid. Though this whole thing depends heavily on the undisclosed siege changes.

---

Those are my main things. It just seems like we'll get w8 again where no one wants to go anywhere because everywhere is so far away, and going all that way just to be on someone's home turf is terrible.
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Re: Critique: Oceans & Continents

Postby Agame » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:44 pm

And why do you have to go conquer other continents? If you just flee from your continent I am pretty sure the destination won't be very very hostile to non-combat oriented people fleeing from war. If you come in force it means your continent is no longer enough for you and you want world domination or something. Why would the game help you achieve that?
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Re: Critique: Oceans & Continents

Postby boshaw » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:46 pm

If it takes 30 minutes or something crazy to go from one continent to another, the pvpers probably won't bother going to another continent

It's almost like you'll have to put actual effort into pvping someone across the entire world rather than being able to teleport in a jiffy straight to them thanks to charterstones and roads like previous worlds.
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Re: Critique: Oceans & Continents

Postby Ysh » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:13 pm

DDDsDD999 wrote:1. Knarrs
Having to interact with knarrs in a pvp scenario is completely stupid. What happens is everyone on the knarrs target the other knarr's driver, and have attacks queued on him. The instant the knarrs get close enough, the drivers take about 10 hits instantly, typically getting ko'd/killed. The drivers won't be able to port out of the driver's spot for around 40 seconds, leaving their riders as sitting ducks in the middle of who knows how huge of a body of water. Everyone is forced to grab boats out of the knarr or swim, and if the other knarr driver is still up then that entire group is just fucked as they slowly take their turns getting hit by 10 people.

Seems like a problem. Also regarding, ''the drivers won't be able to port out of the driver's spot for around 40 seconds,'' I think on stream they mention not be able to teleport over ocean potentially. I am not sure if this include hearth teleport. It seem to me that current mechanic is not conducive to this kind of ship to ship combats.
DDDsDD999 wrote:2. Pvp implications
If it takes 30 minutes or something crazy to go from one continent to another, the pvpers probably won't bother going to another continent, just for the opportunity to camp outside other pvpers spots and fight them on their home turf. Not only because of the inconvenience, but safe palis will be even more necessary. Not being on your home continent could be a death sentence. The people whose turf you're on likely have their entire fleet of knarrs all over the place, ready to dunk you in knarr combat (point 1) if you try to boat away. Which means you need to maintain safe palis on any continent you plan on going to. It just makes actual fights between people who want to pvp seem more and more unfeasible, and instead those people will just run around terrorizing anyone on their continent with no fear on account of the massive home turf advantage.

It seem expected to me that you will require some beachhead to attack foreign settlement. I think I am not sympathetic to this point. Terrorizing people on his own continent is current state of the game, except whole world is single continent. Every one else on your own continent have the same home turf advantage that you do, because it is also their own home turf. This seem to only be problem if it is too easy to totally embargo entire continent with powerful navy, which seem to be issue of balance of naval combat as in point 1.
DDDsDD999 wrote:3. Island defence
Depending on continent size, I could easily see factions deciding to just wall of an entire continent and constantly patrol it with bots. Attempting to defend a siege camp when you're severely limited on land space on someone's home turf, is already hard with people just weaving in and out of their walls with visitor debuff. Now you are in the middle of a huge body of water, where the enemy has a huge fleet of knarrs, basically requiring naval combat, which goes back to point 1, where naval combat is stupid. Though this whole thing depends heavily on the undisclosed siege changes.

I suspect this continent should be too big to do this. I believe that they have said that there will be same amount of land as in current world in this new world. If there is only 2 major continent, this is same concern as ''what if faction will wall in half of map'' in current world. This have not been a problem yet as far as I have seen. Only real issue here seem to me to be balance of naval combat again. If it is possible to wall in island and patrol with knarr such that it is impossible to siege island, this seems like problem to me.

In general it seem to me all of this issue stem from naval combat issue. Current game seem to have primary focus on land combat until now, these navies are no so robust in features.
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Re: Critique: Oceans & Continents

Postby Granger » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:19 pm

I would expect islands/continents to have rivers, so there shouldn't be any issue with walling them in.
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Re: Critique: Oceans & Continents

Postby SaltyCrate » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:32 pm

Granger wrote:I would expect islands/continents to have rivers, so there shouldn't be any issue with walling them in.

While continents most certainly will have rivers, I expect there would also be a number of small/medium size islands (lets say about 1 minimap sized) which would not have. It can lead to rebirth of legacy-style island vaults/villages which are siegeable only in theory. This is somewhat related concern of mine.
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Re: Critique: Oceans & Continents

Postby DDDsDD999 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:47 pm

boshaw wrote:
If it takes 30 minutes or something crazy to go from one continent to another, the pvpers probably won't bother going to another continent

It's almost like you'll have to put actual effort into pvping someone across the entire world rather than being able to teleport in a jiffy straight to them thanks to charterstones and roads like previous worlds.

Let me clarify: trying to get a fight from a competitive group usually means camping them almost every day. And still, the people that actually are able to pvp almost never pvp'd each other when roads and charterstones were in place. Now it's going to be even more rare to get fights.

Not sure how this is really going to pan out for the randoms that aren't competitive. I don't see warriors that start slaughtering randoms on another continent to be slowed down that much, they aren't gonna make the journey to camp every day like you need to against competent people, just run around killing until they get bored. I sorta expect nabs to get slaughtered in waves: kill the continent you're on, wait until people move to the other continents, maraud through that continent, rinse and repeat.

Granger wrote:I would expect islands/continents to have rivers, so there shouldn't be any issue with walling them in.

Probably, but we don't have much details to work with, and if it does happen it'd be pretty annoying.
Last edited by DDDsDD999 on Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Critique: Oceans & Continents

Postby Yorla » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:47 pm

I don't like the idea of knarr involved naval combat at all. But about those walled island villages - aren't they still siegeble from beneath?
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Re: Critique: Oceans & Continents

Postby Ozzy123 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:51 pm

Knarr combat surely needs some tweaking if there are gonna be oceans, when it comes to knarr fight now its literally just 10 people queining cleave and as soon as one knarr gets in the range of another knarr, enemy driver gets instantly koed with 10 cleaves striking him.
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Re: Critique: Oceans & Continents

Postby SaltyCrate » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:41 pm

Yorla wrote:But about those walled island villages - aren't they still siegeble from beneath?

They are not if they have no beneath.
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