RFC: Metal spiraling

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

RFC: Metal spiraling

Postby loftar » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:22 pm

Metal spiraling is one of the things that we want to reconsider prior to the reset. We have some ideas on our own, but a problem is that we don't know exactly how y'all are doing it concretely, so trying to avoid the risk of missing the mark completely, please provide your input.

To begin with, the main problems that we wish to address are these:
  • The qualities of metal (or iron, at least) seem to depend mainly on the equipment used, rather than the ore, which doesn't seem right. (Not least in the light of meteorites supposedly providing higher quality, but regardless of that too.)
  • It is bad to get the skills that "improve" metalworking.
Fixing the bad-skill problem seems simple: Just allow wrought iron, in addition to cast iron, to be re-made into bloom in the finery forge.

As for the quality problem, I'm not entirely sure how the metalworking procedure of those doing it "professionally" looks these days, but I assume that the main reason is that, given how metal can be re-wrought an almost arbitrary number of times, each cycle simply makes the metal quality approach that of the tools used, and thus ore quality isn't really important. I don't assume that the ±10% random quality roll on the wrought-iron recipe has a role in this (which is what I traditionally referred to as "metal spiraling"). I can see a couple of potential ways to change this:
  • The brute-force solution would be to make the finery forge and the wrought-iron crafting recipe soft-cap qualities rather than simply mix them. I don't really like this solution, since it works incongruently with how other similar mechanics work, but it is a possible solution nevertheless.
  • One could consider doing it so that, by each forging of bloom into wrought iron, further processing affects the quality of that particular piece of metal less and less, preferably exponentially less so, except for the aforementioned random roll. It feels a bit ugly to add state to pieces of metal, though, but I could live with it.
  • Insert your other favorite solution here

Comments?
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Re: RFC: Metal spiraling

Postby Mario_Demorez » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:31 pm

Go here: https://discord.gg/ZS5s23
Talk for like two seconds with anyone in there. About all your problems
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Re: RFC: Metal spiraling

Postby Redlaw » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:34 pm

From what I have seen yes, they are all made from characters that lack the skills to be really good at it. To increase the chances of getting cast iron back. So while someone with the skill atm will get a wanted boost, the ones with out it quickly can raise and then push the quality to above what it is currently at.

Then then use that higher q metal to make slightly higher q anvils and hammers, and keep pushing the process.

Yes in some cases this does mean they burn tons and I mean tons of metal bars just to gain 50 points of quality, but it does add up. It means people buying cast, mining cast, having the stats used to push the soft cap up. All matter, early world its at a point that if you do not get the str quickly for it, it might as well not be worth doing till you can buy the higher q left overs of others.

Ways I see that could fix it, keep the % chance that cast iron and wrought iron are the same with and with out the skill. Giving make wrought iron a chance to be higher q instead. This would slow the process down but make people junk wrought iron still worth making. This would at least slow the progress and allow people to have one character and not 2 to blacksmith with at least.

I would be ok with diminishing returns for q here, but that seems a bit iffy as you said. Could do something like a metal can only be better then x times its base q. This would mean having higher q base metals more needed to help push q. This could also slow down the q climb a bit.

But these are my thoughts, I have only tried to do it off hand as is, so I am not 100% in the know about this.
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Re: RFC: Metal spiraling

Postby KitsuneG » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:38 pm

Image as we think the formula for metal products looks like that, if you lower the anvil and hammer effect on final q - same work what Redlaw mention will give much less profit. Well it's still be a thing - and it's good coz spiraling in general is not bad idea - improve metal by pounding and reforging pretty common practice for ancient world.
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Re: RFC: Metal spiraling

Postby ErdTod » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:39 pm

Mario_Demorez wrote:Go here: https://discord.gg/ZS5s23
Talk for like two seconds with anyone in there. About all your problems


You wount meet Loftar on discord... Retranslate ideas from discord to the thread
Last edited by ErdTod on Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RFC: Metal spiraling

Postby saxx » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:40 pm

Hello mr. Loftar

loftar wrote:I don't assume that the ±10% random quality roll on the wrought-iron recipe has a role in this


This is exactly the offending mechanic

loftar wrote:Fixing the bad-skill problem seems simple: Just allow wrought iron, in addition to cast iron, to be re-made into bloom in the finery forge.


This will make things worse, and will actually buff metal spiraling by quite a large margin.

Spiraling for higher quality late game and if you have the industry to support it is a cool mechanic, but the problem with the current system is it encourages a ton of people to mine iron for weeks and a small botfarm to refine it to higher Q bars and the process repeats itself. This is the reason cast iron always had a value of at least 1 gq (gold pebble) throughout all of lategame when other basic resources were completely crashed.

Hit up some more knowledgable high tier faction people and watch them do it. I'm sure they'll be able to show you the whole process. Alternatively Ardennes suggest search for the highest Q smithy's hammer and use your wizardry to look around their base, maybe PM the faction that has it and ask them to help show you
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Re: RFC: Metal spiraling

Postby Fostik » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:58 pm

Taking into account economics that was built around metal spiraling, im not sure that using wrought iron to make bloom again will be a good idea.
IMHO if you will remove any buffs from skills for wrought iron making - it will be good enough. Steel will be more in price, and metal spiraling will exist as before.
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Re: RFC: Metal spiraling

Postby azrid » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:02 pm

A lot of clay a lot of wood and a lot of cast iron.
I would post a screenshot of my setup but I got raided.
You light a lot of finery forges with as many alts as you can handle for spiralling and beat all those blooms into higher quality cast iron.
And don't forget to mute your clients.
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Re: RFC: Metal spiraling

Postby minorchik » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:09 pm

two step:
1.for creating http://ringofbrodgar.com/wiki/Bar_of_Wrought_Iron use 1bar cat iron and one-off https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucible
and add one-off https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucible to formula http://ringofbrodgar.com/wiki/Bar_of_Wrought_Iron near cast iron q
one-off https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucible create from 4 piace of bone clay

2. bone clay(ONLY THIS TYPE OF CLAY becouse its most complex for depends from other game activity) bricks can be heated in http://ringofbrodgar.com/wiki/Finery_Forge using formula like http://ringofbrodgar.com/wiki/Bar_of_Wrought_Iron after that crashed with chance:
50% to stones
30% to sand
10% to bone clay same q
10% to bone clay q+10%

in the end we will get 2 way up q and in this way husbantry(and farming) will get big role so we will have better ballance
Last edited by minorchik on Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: RFC: Metal spiraling

Postby kilakan » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:10 pm

Basically, you have ore/smithing/bloomery at N quality, let's call it 10 for now. You make blooms which get the +10% roll, and now you can make anvil and hammer at 11. Then you roll the 10 metal on the 11 anvil/hammer till you get 12 metal. Make new hammer/anvil and repeat.
It's entirely about the +/- 10% quality roll and just doing it thousands of times to very slowly increase the quality of your tools so you can increase the quality of the metal again. You use characters with the lowest chance of getting wrought so you can take cast iron that gets a +10% roll and try to roll it into +10% again, maybe two or three times so hopefully you go from 10 to 14 or 15 for example with q10 tools.

Making it so you can turn wrought back into wrought would definitely remove the need for an alt with the lowest chance of getting wrought (which would be nice as a player), and as some people have mentioned reforging steel over and over to get higher quality metal is a real process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel in which you lose huge amounts of material trying to make one very high grade blade. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgiMz-NZ2rw (in this video a man makes a knife using the feather forging billet technique, his bar I believe ends up a quarter of the size it starts with)

Perhaps a better way of changing it would be by giving metalworkers some method by which they can refine metal with a large cost of materials into a higher quality than what the ore starts as, while removing the randomness from it. Sort of how with farming and enough time you can slowly grow your crops up to whatever your skillcap is. It could maybe take the form of forging 5 iron bars into one, that gains a bonus of 10% of your sqrt(smithing*str) each forging?
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