Get rid of Visitor Debuff

[wonder-ass]

What is the goal here?

Getting rid of visitor so raiding villages gets easier:
The downsides to markets and inconveniences to members of legit villages dosn't warrant to remove Visitor, getting into a village by force is what Siege is for. According to the devs world 11 will have changes to that mechanic, thus this discussion can be put on ice till we know how it will work next world.

Stopping characters from playing whack-a-mole (as the mole) in combat by repeatedly retreating through their visitor gates:
The whole time we're looking at this from only one side: characters exploiting visitor to protect themselves being a problem => nerf Visitor.

The basic idea behind a siege palisade is that the attackers can flee inside and the besieged that would follow would be marked visitor, resulting in them being unable to initate combat on additional characters inside that box and being under the thread of being evicted by the claim owner - thus they don't follow. Same goes the other way around with the gates of the besieged village.

So let's turn that around and, instead of removing the Visitor feature from the game, add to it:
Let the gates apply a nice debuff on anyone traversing them while in a combat relation, regardless if that character would get visitor or not.
Maybe something like:

Fallen from grace
You fled from combat like the coward you are,
the gods in Valhalla peer down upon you in disgust.
Your are deeply ashamed to have failed you gods and kin,
this distracts you from combat, your abilities are reduced.

And certainly that debuff would be stacking, it'll get worse each time a character runs for shelter, let's say a 20% (?) debuff to all combat related calculations (so a total effect in combat of 80%, 64%, 51%, 40%, 32%, ...), lasting for 24 RL hours.

Should nicely discourage PvP experts from repeatedly exploiting visitor gates, no?

this idea will stop them from going out yes. but were trying to prevent people from escaping through them.
itll prevent siege camps thats a + but itll also make it extremely easy for the defenders.

a scenario that could play out mid fight at siege. one of the fighters gets nidbaned, if he runs to a safe pali hes fucked for 24 hours if he stays he will be fucked by nidbanes. meanwhile the defenders are laughing at them with out taking any risk.

[Nek]

Still just feels way too restrictive in my eyes. Yeah it'll help in crippling the enemy bit by bit until they are forced to just stand there looking tough or retreating till the buff wears off but the materialistic side of me still sees no reason why i can't run through the gates to grab peoples bodies or loot them or still even with that suggestion risk running through the gate in general because i'll still be debuffed with the regular visitor debuff and could still be evict killed on the spot.

Okay look, how about this then, I've fucking cracked it this time. Even after everything I've brought up the thought of people getting in and breaking shit (even if it's through the players own error by leaving a regular gate open) leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths. Understandable. What about this then.
We go through with the visitor gate idea, it's limited in the number of them you can create just as I've suggested, BUT 'Regular Gates' STILL apply a debuff, however it's a more limited version of current visitor debuff which would STILL applied to 'Visitor Gates'. What this new debuff would do is not allow acts of actual Vandalism. Looting of chests/cupboards and what not is still allowed, but you can't just break peoples high as fuck quality ovens or infrastructure. For that you'd still NEED to siege the fuckers.
This way the most you lose for your error is some materials if you store them carelessly but your actual means of creating shit, your industry and your overall progress is completely safe.

What do you think?
I mean come on, these ideas I'm coming up with sound so fucking reasonable that it's insane and I feel with this now we should have reached a breakthrough. Now when somebody goes through your open REGULAR GATE there's no threat of your base getting leveled, you're not about to lose all your progress, you're not gonna lose your actual industry but people can still chase you in your gate without fear of being cheaply evict killed, people can still grab bodies and loot corpses that are behind gates and what not.
Surely this sound good.

[MagicManICT]

the materialistic side of me still sees no reason why i can't run through the gates to grab peoples bodies or loot them or still even with that suggestion risk running through the gate in general

Well, if it's a defensive situation and you're the aggressor, being filled with arrows is one reason, being locked in after entering is another.

I think you've made some solid proposals on how to avoid the whole gaming of the system for defensive advantage. At least you're brainstorming ideas if nothing has stuck yet. The only thing I can see as being an issue would be the difficulty in formulating the rules and coding it into the engine without adding further exploits.

[Bauta]

I think I came up with a really contrived system to get old gates back in sieges and basically add archery towers:

• new status, bloodshedder, that is applied to anyone that harms another hearthling for an amount of time directly proportional to damage dealt. (with a cap maybe?)
• village gates, which only allow people without bloodshedder to move through (applying the visitor debuff as normal)
• Normal gates lose the debuff.

Hermit life would be no different from now. See unknown person -> run to village gate or airlock if you don't have a village claim.
Market life would be no different if markets are only reachable from peaceful gates.

Villages would have peaceful gates and normal gates, because if they leave through the village gates to fight, they can't come back inside; Thus at least some of the gates will be normal.

"normal" fighting
A sanctioned village fighter goes out, does their thing, and returns. They can't walk back in from village gates because bloodshedder hasn't worn off, so they head to the "barracks": a giant airlock basically. They enter from the inward-facing gate with their slave key and close it behind them. To enter the village, there are two gates: a village and a normal one; the village one is open, and they can walk in as soon as the timer runs out. The normal one is locked, but if they are a member or trusted enough they could be let in from the normal one (receiving no visitor debuff). Inside the barracks, the village could maintain some palisade pods to afk the timer away safely.

sieges
Sadly I don't know much of how sieges work since I never really took part in one so help me out on this bit.
I expect siegers to use normal gates on the outside and village gates on the inside, where non-fighters could stay during a counterattack. I could see archers using village gates as unbreakable barriers though; tbh archery already needs a rework, but this is still a real issue. As for the defenders, their fighting would revolve around the barracks. They too could deploy archers behind village gates and stuff. The important bit is that they cannot flee or re-enter the battlefield without someone manning the normal gate.

teleporting to hearthfire could be handled two different ways: You can't hearth home if your fire is in a village with village gates and you have bloodshedder; or you can hearth home but village gates stay impassable in both directions, basically locking you out of a fight unless you have a path of normal gates to the battlefield.

[Granger]

this idea will stop them from going out yes. but were trying to prevent people from escaping through them.

I have difficulties parsing that, could you please elaborate a bit in detail what you ment to say with that (especially the 'stop them from going out' part)?

itll prevent siege camps thats a + but itll also make it extremely easy for the defenders.

Why would it make it easier for the defenders? When they go outside to fight they would have the exact same problem when going back in again, unless they manage to drop combat first. No real difference to the attackers in that regard - except they're at home.

a scenario that could play out mid fight at siege. one of the fighters gets nidbaned, if he runs to a safe pali hes fucked for 24 hours if he stays he will be fucked by nidbanes. meanwhile the defenders are laughing at them with out taking any risk.

As I havn't been on the receiving end of nidbanes: is it possible to drop combat with them like with normal mobs? If so he could drop combat and then enter.

PS: the 24 RL hours 20% debuff were just made up numbers to illustrate the general idea - could also be an other progression (like with buying abilities: the first time 1%, then 2%, .3%, ..) or a shorter duration, to allow for a little mole'ing but hindering overdoing it. Just throwing ideas here.

[maze]

~
Okay look, how about this then, I've fucking cracked it this time.

Add on that all gates/mineholes would apply this buff.
Mine holes are basically the biggest problem.

but I rather not rid the buff or make new gates. Spy/infiltrators were a big problem and i recall you being part of one of those villages(R'lhey) in the past Nek.


My only way to solve the visitor debuff is (nothing to do with the doors....)
-players can aggro other players outside like normal and follow them thought gates.
-players can not evict a player if they are in combat with a player from the town.
-trust-passing is not a crime (but leave scent)
-if a player enters a house(w/locked door) other players have 10 sec to enter that house.

-players are unable to start combat when they have the buff

This would ideally would make it possible to chase players.
the downside would be the problem we had in old worlds were people would fill a house up to trap players in. (legacy:crossroads in front of the door // today:steelboxs)

[Nek]

Add on that all gates/mineholes would apply this buff.
Mine holes are basically the biggest problem.

Mineholes technically wouldn't need it if you just build palisades around mineholes like we do currently, no?

[maze]

Add on that all gates/mineholes would apply this buff.
Mine holes are basically the biggest problem.

Mineholes technically wouldn't need it if you just build palisades around mineholes like we do currently, no?

mine holes currently apply the buff when you enter/exit it. unless they changed it again.

[Nek]

mine holes currently apply the buff when you enter/exit it. unless they changed it again.

If that's the case, then it could apply the 'No Vandalism' debuff too that regular gates would apply.
Satisfactory?

[Jackwolf]

So you want to have a constant traffic of members of the working class (eg. miners) ...

... why not just up the limit of how many gates you can have then to 2 / 3 then? I mean this sort of thing is malleable, I only said limit it to 1 because I hadn't thought of the underground section of the village ...

-Limit should probably something akin to 4, for good measure, as it gives an option for; Main land gate, Main dock gate, Miner gate, Inner sanctum gate.
I still disagree that it should be tied to villages but I can't fathom any better solution at this time, so by all means.

but why not just up the limit of how many gates you can have then to 2 / 3 then?

Because then you'd have the same problem as you have now, with 'Visitor fortresses' being trivial to deploy?

Simply don't open your non Visitor Gates except for emergency situations (as in the enemy has successfully sieged you and now you just want to attempt to GTFO of there).

This still screws over newbies unless Visitor Gates are (nearly) as cheap to make as regular gates.

-First point; Require 1 RL week for visitor to kick in if it's not meant for siege camps. 2 weeks if that isn't good enough.
Second point; The cost shouldn't be anything that's only found late game, be it rare resources or time consuming crafts. If anything it should be a greater size [costing more raw materials in wood, metal, stone, whathaveyou] as well as some sort of mystical component to give a logical conclusion why this gate is special. It should have some cost, be it that it may also only be crafted by a Lawspeaker or cause authority drain [either when open, or period].

We go through with the visitor gate idea, it's limited in the number of them you can create just as I've suggested, BUT 'Regular Gates' STILL apply a debuff, however it's a more limited version of current visitor debuff which would STILL applied to 'Visitor Gates'. What this new debuff would do is not allow acts of actual Vandalism. Looting of chests/cupboards and what not is still allowed, but you can't just break peoples high as fuck quality ovens or infrastructure. For that you'd still NEED to siege the fuckers.

-This seems reasonable enough to me. If someone bought the skills and joe schmo left his gate open i don't see why not.

"normal" fighting
A sanctioned village fighter goes out, does their thing, and returns. They can't walk back in from village gates because bloodshedder hasn't worn off, so they head to the "barracks": a giant airlock basically. They enter from the inward-facing gate with their slave key and close it behind them. To enter the village, there are two gates: a village and a normal one; the village one is open, and they can walk in as soon as the timer runs out. The normal one is locked, but if they are a member or trusted enough they could be let in from the normal one (receiving no visitor debuff). Inside the barracks, the village could maintain some palisade pods to afk the timer away safely.
teleporting to hearthfire could be handled two different ways: You can't hearth home if your fire is in a village with village gates and you have bloodshedder; or you can hearth home but village gates stay impassable in both directions, basically locking you out of a fight unless you have a path of normal gates to the battlefield.[/hide]

-I honestly like these ideas. I don't really have any addendums to them, though i'm sure others might.

Add on that all gates/mineholes would apply this buff. [Nek's cracked it idea]
Mine holes are basically the biggest problem.

My only way to solve the visitor debuff is (nothing to do with the doors....)
-players can aggro other players outside like normal and follow them thought gates.
-players can not evict a player if they are in combat with a player from the town.
-trust-passing is not a crime (but leave scent)
-if a player enters a house(w/locked door) other players have 10 sec to enter that house.
-players are unable to start combat when they have the buff
This would ideally would make it possible to chase players.

-I disagree with not changing the gates but i do like these other proposed things