Get rid of Visitor Debuff

[Nek]

Yeah yeah the first post I make after centuries is bitching. Call the cops, I don't give a fuck.
But for the love of fuck, remove this shitty debuff from the game in its entirety.
I get why it was implemented but it's just a shit idea in general. It's had countless exploits centered around it in the past, I have no doubt it will have more in the future. It's still to this day exploitable as fuck in other more 'intended' ways.
PvP near structures with gates have been watered down to enemies just dancing back and forth between their silly magical 'I'm 100% safe past this line and if you chase me, you die' zone.
Haven & Hearth has always had a uncertainty too it in regards to meeting players, be it for trade, having somebody join your village or just seeing them out in the open. Having this system in place which strips outsiders of all their power to act is just a cop out honestly. I'd even put money on it being one of the contributing factors for people leaving later on into the world (though by no means the only reason), because once everybody has their fortresses set up, the only time anything ever happens is when people get caught away from their bases.
The fearmongering about the lack of villager debuff causing 'trade to cease' is just hilariously misguided. Trade took place before this things inclusion and it would continue without it. Nobodies going to be stupid enough to wander into those huge trading hubs causing shit. That is a death sentence unless they have an army, and you better believe the owners of said trade hubs have armies/allies of their own.

Look, there's already significant risk of chasing somebody through their gate or attacking somebody in their home turf, the biggest risk of all is the most obvious one, which is being locked in. You attack somebody then you now have to sit there for a whole hour, trapped with literally nowhere to escape to thanks to the red handed / outlaw debuff, plenty of time for you to get swarmed by reinforcements from the opposition.

Visitor debuff is illogical and negatively impacts the game in a plethora of ways for very little benefit. There's been plenty of other systems that have been tried and then scrapped, we've had to deal with visitor debuff for literal years now, let's be rid of this shit.

Tell you what, get rid of Visitor Debuff for 1 world. Just 1 fucking world, and if you truly believe that its absence has been missed then simply reintroduce it. I won't even bother bitching about it again. I believe the benefits will be immediately visible, especially during the mid game were people have their villages completely built.
I want to once again be able to weigh the pros and cons of either allowing somebody into my base or attacking somebody in theirs rather than the game just choosing for me by saying 'nah fuck you, you walked through the gate so fuck what you want, you're going to behave like a good boy like it or not'. There's no fucking tension.

EDIT -
This sounds like the perfect balanced solution IMO -

Alternative suggestion would be adding new types of gates; merchant or visitor or what have you. These cost more materials than regular gates, as well as dreams (or other hearth magic esque items, to give a reason why neener-neener can't do anything past this line)

I'd prefer this option over the other, providing the gate actually cost a significant amount of materials so that
A. People couldn't just substitute every regular gate for one of these
and
B. People couldn't just use them to make proxy pali's without significant investment, maybe put some other restriction on it like 'needs to be on a village claim to set these types of gates'

Then make regular gates have no such debuff. If you go through a regular gate you can do whatever the fuck you like as per usual.
This is a solid compromise, trade hubs could still be a thing (they literally would have been a thing anyway even without visitor debuff but whatever) and would be just as safe as they are today, regular gates would no longer be a straight up no no zone to cross. I'd personally be happy as fuck with that change. Also as minor as it is, I like the inclusion of having some magic item be incorporated to justify the whole 'you can't get up to any funny business if you pass this shit' thing.

[Redlaw]

so no more trade cities and people die much faster... got you (for short).

There are ways to do as you suggest baseline, get rid of the buff 100% and yet keep it, jorb did say on the 3nd to last live stream last year that (or the one before it). They could make merchant gates that give it to players or something like that. But that does add a few other issues passably.


Personally the buff past when people abused it or glitched passed it. Its worked as it was meant to.

[Lyrroth]

i dont say nothing bad or good but wonder if something like community fair would be again possible without visitor debuff.

all im sayin is that visitor become a thing for a reason. remove it and it gets worse. im myself dont know which direction to go or propose anything because both with and without, all - and all + equals in both


also there was never fucking tension around of any bases, people literally locked themselfs anyway, the only tension that there is, is only in the wilderness outside base and visitor debuff has nothing to do with that, outside of small camps used to run into safety and out of safety. thats the literally only fucking thing that is overused because of that

[Nek]

also there was never fucking tension around of any bases

Oh there is. Let's just put aside absolutely huge factions for a moment because I've only had 1 world of experience with being part of a massive alliance.
Usually what happens is, people build their base and in my experience they hunt close to their base, they gather shit close to their base, they terraform and do plenty of other shit close to their base. Before Visitor Debuff was a thing, you could catch (or be caught) somebody doing one of these activities. They sprint to their base, making right for the gate. You have several courses of action in this situation, you can try get ahead and block the gate (yes you can do that now but one wrong step and villager debuff can instantly be the end of you, all it takes is this guy to have a friend ready to eject you), you can try follow him in before he can close the gate behind him (comes with the negatives I outlined in my original post).
The point is that everything doesn't stop the moment the guy runs past his gate, which is exactly what happens with visit debuff.

outside of small camps used to run into safety and out of safety.

You said it yourself, that's yet another boring as fuck, bland abuse of visitor debuff which dilutes the fuck out of PvP. You shouldn't be safe because you ran past a line. You should be safe if you have a fucking gate up in front of you and the enemy. That's when sieging comes in to play.
Those small camps people run into for safety that you mentioned would still be a thing without visitor debuff and most of the time I'm sure people are competent enough to open and close gates properly but people panic in those situations and lock their allies out by accident. These little nuances are lost with visitor debuff, the only reason to ever bother shutting the gate is if the enemy has an archer posted outside it. It's fucking horse shit.

[Ysh]

Think of the nabs!

[Mario_Demorez]

I think removing visitor debuff would make the game worse. -1
Let’s not break some of the good parts of the game trying to fix player made problems like safe palis.

[Burinn]

This

so no more trade cities

and that

Think of the nabs!

[Ozzy123]

Visitor debuff is illogical and negatively impacts the game in a plethora of ways for very little benefit.

What are these ways except for not being able to chase someone in their village? I personally dislike visitor aswell but im curious what other disadventages you have on mind, as I don't see many more

[Lyrroth]

also there was never fucking tension around of any bases

Oh there is. Let's just put aside absolutely huge factions for a moment because I've only had 1 world of experience with being part of a massive alliance.
Usually what happens is, people build their base and in my experience they hunt close to their base, they gather shit close to their base, they terraform and do plenty of other shit close to their base. Before Visitor Debuff was a thing, you could catch (or be caught) somebody doing one of these activities. They sprint to their base, making right for the gate. You have several courses of action in this situation, you can try get ahead and block the gate (yes you can do that now but one wrong step and villager debuff can instantly be the end of you, all it takes is this guy to have a friend ready to eject you), you can try follow him in before he can close the gate behind him (comes with the negatives I outlined in my original post).
The point is that everything doesn't stop the moment the guy runs past his gate, which is exactly what happens with visit debuff.

outside of small camps used to run into safety and out of safety.

You said it yourself, that's yet another boring as fuck, bland abuse of visitor debuff which dilutes the fuck out of PvP. You shouldn't be safe because you ran past a line. You should be safe if you have a fucking gate up in front of you and the enemy. That's when sieging comes in to play.
Those small camps people run into for safety that you mentioned would still be a thing without visitor debuff and most of the time I'm sure people are competent enough to open and close gates properly but people panic in those situations and lock their allies out by accident. These little nuances are lost with visitor debuff, the only reason to ever bother shutting the gate is if the enemy has an archer posted outside it. It's fucking horse shit.

Only naabs do stuff near their base. Rest spread to search for nodes as long as that is viable. Also, if You couldn't kill somebody back then, when movement was lot less fluid than it is now, then You simply fucked up or didn't deserve to kill a sprucecap.

Yes I said it myself and the only thing about visitor debuff I would want to see is that when two parties clash, where both used offensive card from deck, visitor debuff not working for both in term of character protection and still can aggro the same people who were involved in combat. Or generally engaging anyone who's redhanded or outlaw. To eliminate small stupid camps but visitor or not, You can't eliminate claims and locked doors.

[Nek]

so no more trade cities

Already debunked. Trade cities have been a thing before visitor debuff was implemented and wouldn't stop being a thing if it disappeared again.

What are these ways except for not being able to chase someone in their village? I personally dislike visitor aswell but im curious what other disadventages you have on mind, as I don't see many more

A few things I can think of are the small little outposts people make near places they're fighting. They provide too much protection specifically because of villager debuff, it gets rid of user error and miscommunication of having to open/close gates to let allies in (I know for a fact you've seen situations were people are frantically opening/closing gates leading to people getting locked out and dying), you can just leave the gate open and be done with it only ever needing to close it when archers are perched outside and the other downside is the side who doesn't have the visitor debuff safespace camp can't bullrush the gates. Again I know that with good enough players you probably wouldn't get the opportunity to do that anyway but as it stands now even if such an opportunity did present itself you couldn't commit to it because the debuff just cucks you out of it.
Other than that there's the thing I mentioned about the loss of tension when you have people in your base who you assume are friends. There's straight up no fear that they can do shit to you, because they can't. Also fuck those people who make visitor debuff 'traps' with carefully placed fences.

Only naabs do stuff near their base. Rest spread to search for nodes as long as that is viable. Also, if You couldn't kill somebody back then, when movement was lot less fluid than it is now, then You simply fucked up or didn't deserve to kill a sprucecap.

Yes I said it myself and the only thing about visitor debuff I would want to see is that when two parties clash, where both used offensive card from deck, visitor debuff not working for both in term of character protection and still can aggro the same people who were involved in combat. Or generally engaging anyone who's redhanded or outlaw. To eliminate small stupid camps but visitor or not, You can't eliminate claims and locked doors.

m8 that's straight up bullshit. The last few villages I was in were huge and there was constantly people hunting shit near the base. Those high quality nodes you mention can be close to your base too, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Obviously if you're hunting mammoths and shit then yeah you're going to more than likely be a good distance from your base but you can't sit there and pretend people don't do shit near their base.