thoughts on bringing back perma death

[Avu]

I reaaaaaaly like the idea of only chars with rage get to be killed for multiple reasons:

-keeps the carebears like me safe (and yes I've quit in the past due to getting killed)
-gives pvp people what they claim they want ability to fight other pvp minded people
-there will be risk vs reward for those that enjoy pvp
-a bully picking on some inconspicuous carebear that turns the tables and kills the offender would be much sweater
-there is a hint of crime prevention real life style as in a lot of crime is prevented by the risk of consequences, sometimes being a civilian is just less hassle, this I always felt was missing from haven
-the big guns need to be high investment high power high risk, I remember in world 3 when we had our titan brickwall basher first of its kind a huuuge investment at the time, when we used him oh boy was our ass clenched for fear of another one being able to break in and murder him in his sleep, while hand brickbashing should stay dead high investment pvp chars should risk dying for extra fun and for letting others catch up if they so work for it
-bullies who get their jollies from killing noobs will risk much more than the said noobs (yeah I know getting wounded to high haven is no fun but still)

-only downside I can see is someone baiting with a non rage character an attack, and I mean by being as obnoxious as possible, think darki with his flags and flute (you know the thing that made survey flags limited in number) but hey that's the stuff that will lead to very funny stories either way it pans out so yeah not really a downside

[Pan_w_okularach]

Jorb said "Our primary purpose is to increase the amount of PvP in the game, and perhaps hopefully also curb some of the more autistic incentives toward farming multiple characters for combat, and such." So I guess what we should look at is, did the amount of PvP in the game increase after this change was made?

Nope. Nothing's changed. If you wonder why PvP doesn't happen that much, it's simply because the game doesn't generate situations where combat is necessary or can happen.

Most of the meaningful gameplay takes place behind the safety of the walls to begin with. All your crafting, growing, cooking etc. And any task that requires one to go outside can be either done on alts or in proximity of safe forts. There's no reason to ever put yourself in danger ever. I mean for people who figured the game out, not for the noobs who might not have the knowledge or the resources to protect themselves. One exception is sieges, it's the only scenario in the game where player is forced to fight or suffer consequences. Other than that combat is totally avoidable. So here's the reason number one. I'm not saying that walls shouldn't exist, but maybe think about something to make people leave them somtimes? Like rework the quest system in a way that would send people to far away random locations? As opposed to having questgivers linked to a limited number of other questgivers that can be walled off and connected with roads.

The second reason is there's nothing to compete for currently. Kingdoms, localized resources, meteorites all could have been sparking PvP activity, if devs put a little bit more thought into it. Like make it impossible to delay kingdom challenges forever and defend cairns with alts and use other shitty tactics. Localized resources are useless and too plentiful and what people do is just place a sneaky village totem nearby and wait - again no combat just alts building claims and destroying other alts's claims till one side gives up. Meteorites, what are they even used for? Make them valuable please.

[Nek]

Nope. Nothing's changed. If you wonder why PvP doesn't happen that much, it's simply because the game doesn't generate situations where combat is necessary or can happen.

Most of the meaningful gameplay takes place behind the safety of the walls to begin with. All your crafting, growing, cooking etc. And any task that requires one to go outside can be either done on alts or in proximity of safe forts. There's no reason to ever put yourself in danger ever. I mean for people who figured the game out, not for the noobs who might not have the knowledge or the resources to protect themselves. One exception is sieges, it's the only scenario in the game where player is forced to fight or suffer consequences. Other than that combat is totally avoidable. So here's the reason number one. I'm not saying that walls shouldn't exist, but maybe think about something to make people leave them somtimes? Like rework the quest system in a way that would send people to far away random locations? As opposed to having questgivers linked to a limited number of other questgivers that can be walled off and connected with roads.

The second reason is there's nothing to compete for currently. Kingdoms, localized resources, meteorites all could have been sparking PvP activity, if devs put a little bit more thought into it. Like make it impossible to delay kingdom challenges forever and defend cairns with alts and use other shitty tactics. Localized resources are useless and too plentiful and what people do is just place a sneaky village totem nearby and wait - again no combat just alts building claims and destroying other alts's claims till one side gives up. Meteorites, what are they even used for? Make them valuable please.

This is correct.
I think I've finally come up with a pseudo-solution too. I say that because I haven't put any thought into the actual finer details but I'll just throw it out there anyway.
First of all though, let's think of some of the things that were added to give some incentive to PvP and fight over.
Localized Resources. The idea was that groups would be coming and fighting over this shit because they're 'so good' and yeah a lot of the resources are quite valuable so why doesn't this work in practice? There's two reasons actually, one obvious and one not so obvious. First is the obvious one, alts. People have the timer set up for when these respawn, they have alts logged out at the resource, they log the alt in when it's time to gather, grab that shit then hearth/log out. Nobody risks shit. Wow an alt who has a few points in cooking and ''''maybe''''' some with rage and very minor combat abilities (but even that's rare) to kill other alts before they can harvest that salt basin first.
The other issue is that even if the alt problem was solved (and it definitely should be solved in this case in particular, shit tier alts shouldn't be able to even harvest this shit, its another part of the game that has all danger removed from it because of this garbage), these types of resources can be harvested TOO QUICKLY and then all the player has to do is quickly hearth the fuck out, it takes seconds. What if we had some resources that took some time to get at/harvest or things that couldn't just be pocketed and hearthed back with? Maybe large items that can be picked up over characters heads and loaded into knarrs and shit (but make it so there's more than 1 per harvest maybe so it takes acual fucking time to grab a small group of people, jump in your knarr and sale off to the location of this resource, takes a bit more time to harvest the resource, then takes a bit more time to carry them to your ship and load them all up before you all have to sale home?
People see anything like this as a 'waste of time' but the more time you're sitting around outside, traveling to a location, scrambling trying to get these resources, traveling back with them, the more time other people have to intercept you.

How about some events that happen where a resource becomes available but EVERYBODY is informed like a few hours before it's going to become available? Maybe there's some sort of tracking shit you can use to lead you to it? Then people WOULD go to it and people WOULD fight over it. Just don't make the mistake of allowing an alt to pick it up and don't allow it to be instantly harvestable.

These are just a few examples of actually ways to get people to come into contact with each other in the game.

[2d0x]

Jorb said "Our primary purpose is to increase the amount of PvP in the game..."

For this, there must be something more valuable than the character itself. But what could be more valuable than a character with good characteristics and credоs? Most skirmishes occur at the beginning of a new world, when resources are valuable, and characters are worth nothing.

[DDDsDD999]

What if we had some resources that took some time to get at/harvest or things that couldn't just be pocketed and hearthed back with?

How about some events that happen where a resource becomes available but EVERYBODY is informed like a few hours before it's going to become available? Maybe there's some sort of tracking shit you can use to lead you to it? Then people WOULD go to it and people WOULD fight over it. Just don't make the mistake of allowing an alt to pick it up and don't allow it to be instantly harvestable.

Literally meteorites. Only problem is they're absolutely worthless.

[Aceb]

Well, maybe not for sometime for W11 I hope. Is there a way to tweak galaxy stones into something worth?

[ZantetsukenX]

What if we had some resources that took some time to get at/harvest or things that couldn't just be pocketed and hearthed back with? Maybe large items that can be picked up over characters heads and loaded into knarrs and shit (but make it so there's more than 1 per harvest maybe so it takes acual fucking time to grab a small group of people, jump in your knarr and sale off to the location of this resource, takes a bit more time to harvest the resource, then takes a bit more time to carry them to your ship and load them all up before you all have to sale home?

I really like this idea as it definitely adds risk and could even up the reward aspect. Like imagine you right click on a salt node and click something like "mine". After 30 seconds a salt chunk shows up above your head and you now can carry it to your boat or back to your base. No hearthing with it allowed. Once back at your base, you can now safely disassemble it for your reward. It doesn't work for all the current limited resources but it could work in some manner for most of them. Imagine being out exploring the world and seeing someone carrying a salt chunk back with them, you'd be tempted to assault (heh) them if you had rage in order to take the resource for yourself.

Another way to introduce more PvP might be to put in some kind of quest that requires transporting a large object (in a cart) to a different location. Essentially introduce trade wagons somehow that would promote banditry. Though there are plenty of problems that could crop up when this is implemented... As another user said above, there needs to be a reward that is worth risking your character for in order to achieve it.

[2d0x]

...Essentially introduce trade wagons somehow that would promote banditry...

Who and why will be gangsters? If the product is problematic to deliver to the market, then this market will wither. Those who have a valuable product are usually stronger and more developed than those for whom the product has value. Bored players who play no longer than 2-3 months in each world, and then leave the game?

[MagicManICT]

Sounds to me, that the problem here is the the ability to have multiple personal claims. Period. It is "pretty abusable" yeah, it is what makes safe forts such a problem. One character should only be able to have one personal claim regardless of whatever changes they make to Rage or death. And its size should be made reasonable too. If you think about it any pclaim larger than 1 minimap(100x100) is probably there to harass people and not for the legit reason of protecting someone's(1 person) home.

And then we just go back to people making 50 alts to do the same thing. I'd say I'm exaggerating, but... I'm not. I had 4 alts w5, all of them having a claim somewhere for legitimate use. It wasn't unusual for people to have up to a half dozen or more legitimate claims. They used their various alts to do it, and sometimes had to make more.

As for protection, my personal claim world 5 was around 150x150 to encompass just the land I was working. I extended it another 50 or so tiles in one direction (along with the wall) to increase the amount of land when my brother joined me. I had a village claim on top of that, too, that was about 2x the size. I was (and still am) of the opinion that I don't want people hanging out near my walls looking over to see what I'm doing or where I'm at.

[2d0x]

...I was (and still am) of the opinion that I don't want people hanging out near my walls looking over to see what I'm doing or where I'm at.

One could introduce a simple “veil” (such as a high-pitched fence). Or canopies.