thoughts on bringing back perma death

[overtyped]

permadeath is fine how it is. There are some issues, like double tapping, by having two people hit at the same time, to deal pure HHP dmg, though jorbtar might have fixed it by now. Wounds take a long time to heal, it's not like u KO them and they are out fighting again in a few minutes.. Can take more than a week or more if your hp is especially high.

[Pan_w_okularach]

Because my crafter is my fighter, and my pepper farm/cheesery/meatpie factory/quality grinding areas are pretty dispersed in the world (charter stones), I play like this is already the reality a lot of the time. it's pretty abusable. You can reasonably claim large swathes of land, basically everywhere you really need to go (expand claim out from quest/safe palis a few hundred tiles, claim decent sized chunks of rivers, with claim shields gone one could easily Vclaim entire mountains/cave networks), and use vandal perms to attack without scents. I've claims dotted around EVERYWHERE for this reason.

Sounds to me, that the problem here is the the ability to have multiple personal claims. Period. It is "pretty abusable" yeah, it is what makes safe forts such a problem. One character should only be able to have one personal claim regardless of whatever changes they make to Rage or death. And its size should be made reasonable too. If you think about it any pclaim larger than 1 minimap(100x100) is probably there to harass people and not for the legit reason of protecting someone's(1 person) home.

If aggro is disallowed unless you've rage on your claims, I think it doesn't need to be explained why this would cause far more problems than it solves.

I think it would only cause one potential problem, which is someone blocking your gates with alts. Not really a very cost efficient way to harass, all things considered. But let people aggro on their personal claims as long as it's just 1 claim - not a big deal. Moreover aggroing alts could be allowed for non-Rage chars too. Nonsense, moving on.

It wouldn't really protect nabs that chose not to get rage, because in like 2 months most of the hardcore nerds are going to have rage alts that they could reasonably kill peasants on.

Nothing in this scenario precludes a character from dying. I'd say my kill ratio when attacking the kind of people who wouldn't purchase rage is about 80% kill / 20% KO.

You say this, but you also say that:

If cleave could only do 40% HHP damage, like with hirdsmans, it would be literally impossible to kill somebody from full HHP

So here's your answer. Make cleave only do 40% HHP damage and anybody without rage but with 100% hhp would never die but get KO'ed instead. Maybe it needs to be lower than 40% I'm not sure, but that's not the point. There are other ways in which KO mechanics can be altered to insure that anyways.

I think the better alternative is to add a skill that increases grievous damage done/taken, and reduce the baseline grievous damage taken by all characters. If cleave could only do 40% HHP damage, like with hirdsmans, it would be literally impossible to kill somebody from full HHP. This could be the baseline. With one character having the aforementioned skill, both could take 50-60% HHP damage from attacks, making kills somewhat reasonable if the victim doesn't know what they're doing, but fairly rare in actual fights(literally same numbers as now, but with punches doing a higher grievous%). If both characters have rage, then each could do somewhere between 70-90% HHP damage, making kills somewhere between very likely to basically guaranteed. Something similar to this: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=61774

The thing about this suggestion that doesn't sit well with me is that it'll create two classes of fighters: the ones creating openings and the ones making the damage. I don't like that one of the two will risk death while the other will not. And players with the strongest chars, the characters that you would actually want to see dying in combat, will avoid purchasing the skill leaving it to fighters with average or below average stats. And let's all realize that permadeath is not that permanent you only lose one half of your LP/FEP. When a titan dies it's a tragedy, it's a lot of LP/FEP lost and the whole group will suffer as the result, but when an average fighter dies it's whatever, will bounce back in 2 weeks no problem.
IMO the main reason permadeath should be brought back is to counter unlimited stat growth. With permadeath working for everyone not just the weakest(as it is now, can go into detail on that) the power that comes with rolling on a titan will come with the risk of losing all that work if it dies.

There are ways to abuse the system and for them to be functionally un-killable, but I'd call those exploits on the same level as shield extension/questing... Very few people use them.

Yeah not many people use them but most of them are high profile PvP players, and thats the problem. Carrying around rootfill and so on. (Other tricks to avoid death I don't wanna disclose). And it will only get worse if your suggestion is implemented. That being said, if I was to choose between that and no changes, it's better than nothing I guess.

[Pan_w_okularach]

Wounds take a long time to heal, it's not like u KO them and they are out fighting again in a few minutes.. Can take more than a week or more if your hp is especially high.

Takes like 1-2 days most cases, then you have 90% hhp, and 10% HHP missing doesn't increase the chance of dying that much. And fights only happen like once a week.

[Granger]

IMO the main reason permadeath should be brought back is to counter unlimited stat growth. With permadeath working for everyone not just the weakest(as it is now, can go into detail on that) the power that comes with rolling on a titan will come with the risk of losing all that work if it dies.

When the goal is killing off titans to counter stat growth... maybe the server should just disable KO for the top 15% of characters - 2/3rd of them selected by their combat proficiency (UA,MC,MM, AGI, CON, STR), the rest 1/3rd by total amount of LP and FEP from the ones not already selected yet?

[Pan_w_okularach]

When the goal is killing off titans to counter stat growth... maybe the server should just disable KO for the top 15% of characters - 2/3rd of them selected by their combat proficiency (UA,MC,MM, AGI, CON, STR), the rest 1/3rd by total amount of LP and FEP from the ones not already selected yet?

I'd be okay with that.

[Necroliter]

When the goal is killing off titans to counter stat growth... maybe the server should just disable KO for the top 15% of characters - 2/3rd of them selected by their combat proficiency (UA,MC,MM, AGI, CON, STR), the rest 1/3rd by total amount of LP and FEP from the ones not already selected yet?

This may be extremely unreliable, considering amounts of alts and bots that may exist in Haven. Adding a couple of alts will push another character into Death Threshold.

P.S. We can`t have nice things while we have no control over alts.

[ZantetsukenX]

4. No, no, no. No. I never intend to take murder (please re-add it), or rage if this change ends up being the case, i should not be able to kill someone. Maybe accidently, sure. Somehow i accidently did too much HHP damage at once and offed the guy, whoop. I should not be able to KO someone and then finish them off. Just like I am not able to loot their unconscious body if i don't have theft. Without theft I am incapable as a hearthling of stealing from another.

I didn't write it out fully but really option 4's result would be up to N1. I didn't mean to indicate that it was guaranteed death, just that because R1 lost and has rage, he can be killed. Whether or not N1 goes through with it is up to them. Overall, I have no problems with "If you take Rage, you can be attacked while knocked out and can't teleport home anymore."

I also wouldn't mind if this was instead applied to a "murder" skill instead of "rage"... But the problem with that is that there'd be very little reason to take "Murder" unless your entire goal is to kill someone else who has "Murder". By associating it with straight PvP (Rage) people would be willing to pick it so that they can rob other people they encounter in the wild, even with it's inherent downside of allowing you to be attacked and killed while knocked out.


EDIT: Honestly, maybe what we should really be looking at is the reason the "combat ends upon knockout" change was made in the first place. Jorb said "Our primary purpose is to increase the amount of PvP in the game, and perhaps hopefully also curb some of the more autistic incentives toward farming multiple characters for combat, and such." So I guess what we should look at is, did the amount of PvP in the game increase after this change was made?

[2d0x]

I often misinterpret other people's messages, so I want to clarify:

IMO the main reason permadeath should be brought back is to counter unlimited stat growth. With permadeath working for everyone not just the weakest(as it is now, can go into detail on that) the power that comes with rolling on a titan will come with the risk of losing all that work if it dies.

Slightly exaggerating and speaking in other words: the ability to kill all babies is necessary, so that none of them will accidentally become a tyrant. Did I interpret correctly?

When the goal is killing off titans to counter stat growth... maybe the server should just disable KO for the top 15% of characters - 2/3rd of them selected by their combat proficiency (UA,MC,MM, AGI, CON, STR), the rest 1/3rd by total amount of LP and FEP from the ones not already selected yet?

A good idea.

[Kamekono]

the main reason so many big bois were running around is because of the fact they had bin koed many times before but got away through ko.
bringing back murder after ko will stop people from reaching insane stats significantly.

How about making the murder skill a trigger for it? If you took murder, you can be killed after KO. If you didn't, you can't.

This way, pvp-ers can KO-kill each others, but can't kill KOed sprucecaps and other non-pvp players

[Nek]

How about making the murder skill a trigger for it? If you took murder, you can be killed after KO. If you didn't, you can't.

This way, pvp-ers can KO-kill each others, but can't kill KOed sprucecaps and other non-pvp players

That's one of those things that sounds good at first but is too flawed.
The difficult part in PvP is KO'ing somebody, so the titan characters could simply avoid taking Murder while still being a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield, doing all the hard lifting and KOing people, then murder alts can just finish the job on the KO'd targets. The murder part is easy and can be done by a character that isn't particularly strong.
I just don't see anybody taking Murder if it then makes them vulnerable to die while still not allowing them to kill anybody at all except other people with Murder. It's way too big a downfall for minimal benefit.

The Rage idea works fine IMO, the downside I mentioned earlier about people just waiting to get aggro'd can be addressed via some of the work arounds already mentioned.
If you're gonna want the ability to attack somebody, you should be prepared to die too otherwise the actual problem characters (aka the high as fuck stat ones) aren't gonna take anything to put their beast mode character in any serious harms way.
Even assuming nothing got done about that Rage downside I mentioned, you can at least be comfortable in the knowledge that titans who didn't take it can't assert their dominance without you attacking them first. They can't instigate shit.
Though something should definitely be done about it either way, I don't want anybody thinking that I'm implying it should work that way.