thoughts on bringing back perma death

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby Griffone » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:45 pm

MightySheep wrote:You know if you just want an open world game where you can build shit thats been done a bunch of times better than haven. I dont get why youre even here if you not into high risk pvp because that the only thing which set haven apart really.


Could you name some examples?

Also, you're disregarding the unique progression oh H&H, intricate crafting and mmo player-driven economy aspects of the game. I'm yet to find a game that has the survival elements and unique crafting like Haven, would love to hear any suggestions.

That and one can use the same argument against you where high-risk pvp is well present in other games (EVE Online, Rust-likes and (maybe) Archeage), haven is not unique because of any single aspect, it's a combination of them.
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby 2d0x » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:14 am

Griffone wrote:Could you name some examples?

Also, you're disregarding the unique progression oh H&H, intricate crafting and mmo player-driven economy aspects of the game. I'm yet to find a game that has the survival elements and unique crafting like Haven, would love to hear any suggestions...

Hardly similar, but may be of interest: Terraria, Starbound, This War of Mine, Subnautica, No Man's Sky, My Time At Portia... Even less similar: the series Sword Art Online and Atelier.
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby CaveHermit » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:53 am

wonder-ass wrote:
jorb wrote:
Granger wrote:Simple solution: buying Rage disables KO for that character. These who want more dying can buy it, these who don't skip it like they already do...


Off the cuff, and without too much thought, I really like this idea. Will certainly consider.

Anyone can feel free to throw arguments against it if they have them.


well i guess the draw back would be fighters not getting rage and letting others aggro them WITH rage to kill them.

Well bring back perma death :lol: so funny some idiot want ipban for raid by minehole from inside you want perma death. XD just question you know how this world will look after 3month? xD i think dead 100ppl max bcs noone will want play when die x10time and die minimum 1x per week if will fight XDDD just think its rly idiot. Kill ppl in group fight is easy bcs what is problem if someone have 3k hp do on him 2k dmg and later rush him with your friend do 100% and kill ? xD i dont know. Make that game more dead
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby Granger » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:03 am

CaveHermit wrote:Kill ppl in group fight is easy bcs what is problem if someone have 3k hp do on him 2k dmg and later rush him with your friend do 100% and kill ?

That loophole needs to be closed so non-permadeath characters show up on their HF with 1HHP left (they still can think about drowning themselves to avoid the healing time, if they like). While at it: the ability to install gear on downed characters has to go too, to close another loophole that involves leeches.
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby MightySheep » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:10 am

Griffone wrote:Could you name some examples?

Wurm, Conan Exiles, Life is Fuedal, Minecraft, Atlas. All open world multiplayer pvp sandbox where you can build houses etc. Haven stands out from the crowd with the adrenline of losing your whole freaking account in 1 pvp fight. Take that away and its just like a lesser version of most of those games I listed.
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby Pan_w_okularach » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:33 am

jorb wrote:
Granger wrote:Simple solution: buying Rage disables KO for that character. These who want more dying can buy it, these who don't skip it like they already do...


Off the cuff, and without too much thought, I really like this idea. Will certainly consider.

Anyone can feel free to throw arguments against it if they have them.

Yes please.
Jackwolf wrote:
HasseKebab wrote:Instead of Rage doing that how about you just add back the murder skill for say 100k lp which allows the player to murder other players with the murder skill and vice versa but cannot murder or be murdered by rage characters.


I'm kind of behind this one honestly. I've been away for a while so I forgot Murder wasn't even added in Hafen. Make it so fighters can take Rage without penalty, otherwise you can't even join a fight to save your buddy who is under attack. Add in murder for those who want to murder, and they too can be murdered. Those with Rage cannot murder if they do not also have Murder, period, even if they win the fight. Not every hearthling is a murder, merely a defender of themselves or their people. Beat the snot out of the bad guy, take his things, kick his arse back to his fire and leave him to lick his wounds.

Well THAT for sure will result in murder alts. If you wanna help your buddy bring a rescue boat or something, he's not risking his life anyways unless he has rage too.
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby Jackwolf » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:51 am

I don't rightly understand the supposed downsides of murder alts if people are just going to have rage alts if it's made so you can only kill someone with rage? At least if people can take rage they can fight, defend, protect, beat people up, all without actually murdering anyone - just like in legacy. If Murder costs some great amount then by all means, let someone make a murder alt specifically for that while others who don't bother with it can continue stating and focusing on one character rather than dividing their focus amongst two separate fighting characters just for the occasional kill.
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby 2d0x » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:17 am

As an option: only one character on the account (the first) can receive KO, all other alts have permadeath? Yes, there are a lot of flaws (for example, multi-accounts; but multi-accounts are either verified <which is beneficial for developers - profit>, or are free and have some limitations). The bottom line is that the danger will be present, but the player will not lose everything at once. Personally, I don't like permadeath at all, but there must be some kind of compromise.
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby Vigilance » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:59 am

MightySheep wrote:
Griffone wrote:Could you name some examples?

Wurm, Conan Exiles, Life is Fuedal, Minecraft, Atlas. All open world multiplayer pvp sandbox where you can build houses etc. Haven stands out from the crowd with the adrenline of losing your whole freaking account in 1 pvp fight. Take that away and its just like a lesser version of most of those games I listed.

Iunno man, I've played literally all of these pretty extensively except Conan Exiles (haven't installed it yet but thanks humble monthly) and Atlas (probably not gonna buy that until the shitstorm calms down and the game sinks or swims) and none of them are all too similar other than "They're longer term sandbox games." Wurm is a "I hate everything about fast paced progress and excitement so I'm going to play a retirement home simulator," while LiF is reskinned Wurm with unfortunately pretty clunky and not-super-good combat that is literally only relevant in a PvP setting. The only thing I could consider similar would be Minecraft if you mod it to the point of unrecognizability and at that point you're playing a barely-functioning mess of scripts and performance issues.

Hafen imo is a pretty solid blend of slow and fast content with a combat system that isn't nearly as awful as Wurm's (and minecraft's) lack thereof, or LiF's mess, and it can honestly stand on its own as a game for a bit in a carebear/PvE focused setting, where LiF falls apart and becomes inferior Wurm, and where Wurm would've bored you to tears, or taken you ample time and some ibuprofen to get to a comfortable point.

I think the game could stand to regain permadeath as an opt-in as mentioned in the thread, the way jorb is probably already imagining it, where you can opt to live by the sword of being a big dick pvp nerd but also risk the whole "death" element most of you maniacs still crave.
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby Pan_w_okularach » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:26 am

jorb wrote:
Granger wrote:Simple solution: buying Rage disables KO for that character. These who want more dying can buy it, these who don't skip it like they already do...


Off the cuff, and without too much thought, I really like this idea. Will certainly consider.

Anyone can feel free to throw arguments against it if they have them.

On a second thought, there's a few adjustments. First of, the permadeath chars should just be stripped of the ability to teleport home on KO not die on KO cause that's dumb. There have been too many times I was accidently KO'ed by my dumb friends or due to bugs. And what if I want to just KO someone without killing them?
Now there will be people who would knowingly go into battle without Rage with the intention of making the enemy aggro them, which could include getting in the way, surrounding, intimidating etc. Or only buy Rage when it's clear that the enemy is outnumbered or lying KOed waiting to get up. To deal with this I propose:
1. A visual clue indicating whether a character has Rage or not, like an evil smile on their face or something. Optional: can only be seen by other people with Rage :twisted:
2. Make Rage only take effect after some time since it was purchased, preferably longer than it usually takes for a fight to play out, ~1 hour real life time.
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