thoughts on bringing back perma death

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby falinix » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:52 pm

perma death is great, i agree we need some kind of drawback from being ko'ed though (like 10-20% stat + skill lose) to prevent relativly "risk free" pvp. i don't like the idea where been able to aggro/kill a player is linked to a certain skill also any system further encouraging "alt-play" is just plain stupid. imo alts are just stupid.... pvp'ing on a second char while main/crafter never leaves base, give uns 1 acc with 1 char only.
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby Sholom » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:57 pm

+1
To people saying it makes people quit, kills the game or affects population negatevely in other ways: playercount hasn't really changed since it was a thing. You get same 900-1000 at the world start slowly declining and coming back to the 150-200 when world is very mature.
So what did we really gain from permadeath being "removed"?
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby Aceb » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:09 pm

Sholom wrote:+1
To people saying it makes people quit, kills the game or affects population negatevely in other ways: playercount hasn't really changed since it was a thing. You get same 900-1000 at the world start slowly declining and coming back to the 150-200 when world is very mature.
So what did we really gain from permadeath being "removed"?


It does in fact make people quit and I remember before K.O mechanic, servers had that 50-100 less player base in comparison.
+ many people didn't leave their base without alt meta.
The main reason behind is that we are much the same players going over and over, while permadeath had it charm few years ago, now, it makes You hate it, since You have the same amount of time to work it out.
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby dafels » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:05 pm

Aceb wrote:
Sholom wrote:+1
To people saying it makes people quit, kills the game or affects population negatevely in other ways: playercount hasn't really changed since it was a thing. You get same 900-1000 at the world start slowly declining and coming back to the 150-200 when world is very mature.
So what did we really gain from permadeath being "removed"?


It does in fact make people quit and I remember before K.O mechanic, servers had that 50-100 less player base in comparison.
+ many people didn't leave their base without alt meta.
The main reason behind is that we are much the same players going over and over, while permadeath had it charm few years ago, now, it makes You hate it, since You have the same amount of time to work it out.

The increase in average playercount is insignificant compared to the time when there was permadeath and I am sure that there are other factors affecting the playercount in comparsion of world 9 when there was permadeath, because the world was way more different even if you don't count in permadeath being almost removed and the alt meta when many people are not leaving their base on their main characters is still a thing anyway.
Last edited by dafels on Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby HasseKebab » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:05 pm

Pan_w_okularach wrote:1. A visual clue indicating whether a character has Rage or not, like an evil smile on their face or something. Optional: can only be seen by other people with Rage :twisted:


I really like this idea tbh
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby SnuggleSnail » Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:41 pm

jorb wrote:
Granger wrote:Simple solution: buying Rage disables KO for that character. These who want more dying can buy it, these who don't skip it like they already do...


Off the cuff, and without too much thought, I really like this idea. Will certainly consider.

Anyone can feel free to throw arguments against it if they have them.


Because my crafter is my fighter, and my pepper farm/cheesery/meatpie factory/quality grinding areas are pretty dispersed in the world (charter stones), I play like this is already the reality a lot of the time. it's pretty abusable. You can reasonably claim large swathes of land, basically everywhere you really need to go (expand claim out from quest/safe palis a few hundred tiles, claim decent sized chunks of rivers, with claim shields gone one could easily Vclaim entire mountains/cave networks), and use vandal perms to attack without scents. I've claims dotted around EVERYWHERE for this reason.

If aggro is disallowed unless you've rage on your claims, I think it doesn't need to be explained why this would cause far more problems than it solves.

It wouldn't really protect nabs that chose not to get rage, because in like 2 months most of the hardcore nerds are going to have rage alts that they could reasonably kill peasants on.

It would mean archers with rage could shoot at people without rage, and not cause aggro until they hit(or almost hit, I guess), which is pretty significant considering the amount of damage archers do. Archers with rage could also be baited into aggroing characters without rage during fights.

I think the better alternative is to add a skill that increases grievous damage done/taken, and reduce the baseline grievous damage taken by all characters. If cleave could only do 40% HHP damage, like with hirdsmans, it would be literally impossible to kill somebody from full HHP. This could be the baseline. With one character having the aforementioned skill, both could take 50-60% HHP damage from attacks, making kills somewhat reasonable if the victim doesn't know what they're doing, but fairly rare in actual fights(literally same numbers as now, but with punches doing a higher grievous%). If both characters have rage, then each could do somewhere between 70-90% HHP damage, making kills somewhere between very likely to basically guaranteed. Something similar to this: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=61774


(((I personally don't mind things they way they are though, other than concussion being random, and it being random if you get an easy/hard wound from getting cleaved)))
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby ZantetsukenX » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:49 am

SnuggleSnail wrote:It wouldn't really protect nabs that chose not to get rage, because in like 2 months most of the hardcore nerds are going to have rage alts that they could reasonably kill peasants on.

It would mean archers with rage could shoot at people without rage, and not cause aggro until they hit(or almost hit, I guess), which is pretty significant considering the amount of damage archers do. Archers with rage could also be baited into aggroing characters without rage during fights.


But the whole point is that the peasants would not die unless they also had rage. Yes, they'd still get knocked out, but the point is they don't lose their character. Who cares if a person makes a rage alt and knocks out a non-rage character? It sucks for the KO'd person, but not as much as perma death. You have 4 scenarios basically:
1. Rage Person (R1) attacks Rage person (R2) and wins > R2 is permanently killed as a result.
2. Rage Person (R1) attacks Rage person (R2) and loses > R1 is permanently killed as a result.
3. Rage Person (R1) attacks non-Rage person (N1) and wins > N1 is knocked out and teleports home.
4. Rage Person (R1) attacks non-rage person (N1) and loses > R1 is permanently killed.

All three people in these scenarios face the same risk of being attacked when out in the wild, the only difference is if they permanently die or not depending on if they took rage. But there's a cost to not dying permanently in that you can't attack anyone unless previously attacked. Meaning if you want revenge (because someone stole something) then you have to buy rage which opens up you to perma-death. A side benefit of this setup would be that it could allow for a proper bounty system to be introduced in that if you want revenge on someone, but don't want to buy rage, you could pay to have a rage person kill/KO them for you. Or you spend hours building up a rage alt yourself to do the deed.
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby Jackwolf » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:11 am

Pan_w_okularach wrote:On a second thought, there's a few adjustments. First of, the permadeath chars should just be stripped of the ability to teleport home on KO not die on KO cause that's dumb. There have been too many times I was accidently KO'ed by my dumb friends or due to bugs. And what if I want to just KO someone without killing them?
[...] I propose:
1. A visual clue indicating whether a character has Rage or not, like an evil smile on their face or something. Optional: can only be seen by other people with Rage :twisted:
2. Make Rage only take effect after some time since it was purchased, preferably longer than it usually takes for a fight to play out, ~1 hour real life time.

I agree that they shouldn't die on KO, that's kind of dumb. If I don't have rage (or murder, heavily suggesting murder be re-included tbh) then I shouldn't be able to kill you if I win the fight. I win the fight, you go down, you get knocked out. Great times, I survived, you did too because i don't have the capacity for murder in me (ie haven't purchased it)

As for the proposed ideas;
1, sounds super awesome and really cool and i love it. Even better if it's only indicated when you're in combat with someone, via top right corner.
2, this sounds incredibly reasonable. No one should reasonably be able to commit murder the second they've decided they have it in them. 1hr timer unlock sounds great.

ZantetsukenX wrote:But the whole point is that the peasants would not die unless they also had rage. Yes, they'd still get knocked out, but the point is they don't lose their character. Who cares if a person makes a rage alt and knocks out a non-rage character? It sucks for the KO'd person, but not as much as perma death. You have 4 scenarios basically:
1. Rage Person (R1) attacks Rage person (R2) and wins > R2 is permanently killed as a result.
2. Rage Person (R1) attacks Rage person (R2) and loses > R1 is permanently killed as a result.
3. Rage Person (R1) attacks non-Rage person (N1) and wins > N1 is knocked out and teleports home.
4. Rage Person (R1) attacks non-rage person (N1) and loses > R1 is permanently killed.


1, 2, and 3. Sounds good, sounds reasonable, sounds great.
4. No, no, no. No. I never intend to take murder (please re-add it), or rage if this change ends up being the case, i should not be able to kill someone. Maybe accidently, sure. Somehow i accidently did too much HHP damage at once and offed the guy, whoop. I should not be able to KO someone and then finish them off. Just like I am not able to loot their unconscious body if i don't have theft. Without theft I am incapable as a hearthling of stealing from another.

ZantetsukenX wrote: All three people in these scenarios face the same risk of being attacked when out in the wild, the only difference is if they permanently die or not depending on if they took rage. But there's a cost to not dying permanently in that you can't attack anyone unless previously attacked. Meaning if you want revenge (because someone stole something) then you have to buy rage which opens up you to perma-death. A side benefit of this setup would be that it could allow for a proper bounty system to be introduced in that if you want revenge on someone, but don't want to buy rage, you could pay to have a rage person kill/KO them for you. Or you spend hours building up a rage alt yourself to do the deed.


I also hate the idea of not being able to fight back when xyz person attacked you but left, you can't then attack them back when you're more organized. It's stupid.
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby SnuggleSnail » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:18 am

Are you suggesting people without a skill should be immortal? That would result in a level of griefing high enough for me to definitely quit the game.

3. Rage Person (R1) attacks non-Rage person (N1) and wins > N1 is knocked out and teleports home.


Nothing in this scenario precludes a character from dying. I'd say my kill ratio when attacking the kind of people who wouldn't purchase rage is about 80% kill / 20% KO. There are ways to abuse the system and for them to be functionally un-killable, but I'd call those exploits on the same level as shield extension/questing... Very few people use them.

Nothing here would affect bounties.
I thought the point was that people too rarely die in faction fights, not that sprucecaps needed to be protected...
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Re: thoughts on bringing back perma death

Postby 2d0x » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:25 am

falinix wrote:...also any system further encouraging "alt-play" is just plain stupid. imo alts are just stupid...

The game itself encourages "alt-play". Without alts, you simply cannot develop your main character and get quality items.
falinix wrote:...main/crafter never leaves base...

Then he will not be able to receive the credos and become useless.

I suppose that many players want to return not a permadeath, but those times when there was a permadeath. This is just nostalgia.
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