global pool is a bad idea and here's why.

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Re: global pool is a bad idea and here's why.

Postby SnuggleSnail » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:48 pm

The global pool is rly funny to me.

For the first month of the world glimmermoss is the be all end all. Cool kids can see all gimmermoss pretty comfortably by day 2, and you can collect enough for an entire village before the global pool kicks in. When the regular users get to be able to see glimmers they instantly become so rare they're not worth looking for regardless if you're it's automated or not.

You can automate pearling enough to where getting a Pneck replacement for your entire village every few months is trivial, even when the global pool is empty. If there were no gloabl pool studying pearls would be ??kinda?? OP a little bit. But nobody would ever study pearls outside of heavily botting it, and people would only heavily bot it to study them, so...

Cave clay is the only other global pool foregable that matters, and it probably matters the most. 100% automated by every relevant group, 0 issues with the global pool. Could be fixed by making the best caveclay Q =< the average pit clayQ.

It's also pretty funny that an infinite supply of things like morales would probably increase player power more than the stuff people seem actually concerned about people having too much of, like flotsams/pearls. I don't think morales even have a global pool.

The actual good foreagable curios(angler lights, blowholes, glimmermoss early on, ivory figurines) are all at least partially automated by, I think, most people.

The global pool feels a lot like DRM that hurts regular users, and does nothing to stop automation, outside of people not quite getting enough pearls to study. (((which probably doesn't even matter with UA equalization, and if it did nobody would care if pearls were nerfed as a curio)))

P.S the people talking about local pools underestimate how good autopathers are. Plus, if a foregable were actually powerful enough to warrant caring about botting it, my guess is it would be easy to set up enough chars/locations to automate it still
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Re: global pool is a bad idea and here's why.

Postby Nightdawg » Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:14 pm

SnuggleSnail wrote:P.S the people talking about local pools underestimate how good autopathers are. Plus, if a foregable were actually powerful enough to warrant caring about botting it, my guess is it would be easy to set up enough chars/locations to automate it still


I mean... they suggested at least making the stupid mechanic not global? Pretty confident you wouldn't get your pathfinding bot in everyone else's mines on all continents. Though I can see why it wouldn't work for stuff like flotsam or pearls.
I'd honestly have them deleted from the game rather than adding a mechanic that only helps bots. :roll:

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Re: global pool is a bad idea and here's why.

Postby bmjclark » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:54 pm

Honestly, the global pool doesn't even do much to stop botting. I'm surprised it's lasted as long as it has as a mechanic. As always, mechanics that are put in to stop botting just end up making the game less fun for everyone and also not actually stopping the issue.
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Re: global pool is a bad idea and here's why.

Postby jordancoles » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:31 am

If anything the bots just scoop up all the shit from the global pool and regular players don't get anything lol
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Re: global pool is a bad idea and here's why.

Postby vatas » Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:11 am

jordancoles wrote:If anything the bots just scoop up all the shit from the global pool and regular players don't get anything lol

That's what we've kept saying but I'm glad we got your seal of approval on that statement.
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Re: global pool is a bad idea and here's why.

Postby svino » Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:18 am

SnuggleSnail wrote:P.S the people talking about local pools underestimate how good autopathers are. Plus, if a foregable were actually powerful enough to warrant caring about botting it, my guess is it would be easy to set up enough chars/locations to automate it still


This is such a stupid argument honestly.
Everything in the game is technically bottable if your life depends on it. You can bot mining, smithing, curio making, farming, foraging, hunting, and even top tier combat if you had a team of scientists. So since they are bottable it'd be better to just remove all the current mechanics and replace them with very hard capcha minigames instead, cause it can only be a good mechanic if it's 100% unbottable.

If you want to set up 20 accounts with foraging and exploration just to get massive amounts of pearls or morels or whatever, and they can't just forage from the exact same locations all the time, you have deal with a lot other problems than just pathing around trees. You have to make sure they dont forage the exact same spots so you would need to spread your 20 alts all over the continent and have to deal with transpotation, you have to deal with the problem of other players attacking and looting them easily, you have to deal with random lynxes, wolverines, and wolves with unlucky paths just running up and aggroing your alts before you can run away, you have to deal with inventory problems more so than stationary bots, and you have to put in at least some effort to write some bot that can run around randomly and do all this for you instead of just some 20 line python script that logs in and loots and logs out.

Basically you would need to emulate a real player if you want to farm optimally, whereas with global pools the real player has to emulate the bot to farm optimally.
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Re: global pool is a bad idea and here's why.

Postby MagicManICT » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:39 am

svino wrote:Everything in the game is technically bottable if your life depends on it. You can bot mining, smithing, curio making, farming, foraging, hunting, and even top tier combat if you had a team of scientists.

Don't need a team of scientists, just a small group of good coders with too much time on their hands. The algorithms are all publicly available, and it's just a matter of optimizing with a set of know equations.

Not so much a stupid argument as it's a redundant, useless argument about anything in a computer game. Some game systems are almost as complex as a chess or go game, but people have gotten that down to an almost simplistic set of code now.

And a bot doesn't need a UI, just a set of coordinates. A typical desktop capable of running Haven should be able to run a couple hundred accounts if there isn't a GUI that needs to be interfaced with. (There have been attempts at getting this done. I've looked at doing it myself... I just don't have the skills to pull it off.)
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Re: global pool is a bad idea and here's why.

Postby SnuggleSnail » Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:11 am

MagicManICT wrote:And a bot doesn't need a UI, just a set of coordinates. A typical desktop capable of running Haven should be able to run a couple hundred accounts if there isn't a GUI that needs to be interfaced with.


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Robots are better than humans at captcha already.
There has been completely autonomous movement without waypoints in haven since at least world 10. People just following the edges of rivers going clockwise and mapping out beaver dungeons. The same scripts are used for whales https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GracefulJubilantFlounder-mobile.mp4. In the case of pearls/flotsams at least, the code is already there to completely negate local pools.

The same thing could probably be done for cave clay pretty easily. Just make a character follow cave walls clockwise and put them in large cave systems/mined tunnels instead of static on a cave shallow. They'd only need, what, 30 MC and quick barrage to beat low level cave slimes? Even if it fricked up, unless the failure rate is super high, the wounds would even be that bad to deal with since most low level cave monsters hit super softly.

Glimmermoss is useful/plentiful for such a short period of time I think people would not care about moving the characters between caverns at all, Even if it were required multiple times a day.

I agree, though, it's redundant. Regardless of global pools, regardless of if there's already code people and copy and paste for it, you still won't see many foraging bots because there aren't any foragables needed in vast quantities, with very few exceptions. The only effect the global pool has ever had on me was making me abandon some forager quests that should've been easy, and making me not forage when the player population is high.
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Re: global pool is a bad idea and here's why.

Postby svino » Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:33 am

MagicManICT wrote:Don't need a team of scientists, just a small group of good coders with too much time on their hands.

That's what i call computer scientists

SnuggleSnail wrote:The same thing could probably be done for cave clay pretty easily. Just make a character follow cave walls clockwise and put them in large cave systems/mined tunnels instead of static on a cave shallow. They'd only need, what, 30 MC and quick barrage to beat low level cave slimes? Even if it fricked up, unless the failure rate is super high, the wounds would even be that bad to deal with since most low level cave monsters hit super softly.

Yes but now the bot would have to deal with all the stuff a players has to deal with, and now it can't only pick up q70 cave clay all the time. I.e it has to simulate a player, and not the other way around.
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Re: global pool is a bad idea and here's why.

Postby wonder-ass » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:09 pm

idk most people get upset about bots im just impressed with how these bots are made and function.
implement ideas in a way it would take more time setting up and making the bot rather than doing the actual mechanic. the correct way to counter bots.
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