Theifs and Soldiers, Ending Binary Sieges

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: Theifs and Soldiers, Ending Binary Sieges

Postby Aceb » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:30 pm

jorb wrote:Good effort here, OP. We have discussed burglarly type effects before, and the problem we've seen is that burglars would basically have to be able to pass through not just walls, but really any object, because otherwise it is easy/possible to create a wall (of some type of object) which locks them out of a compound.


It is impossible to balance in real-time based game unless You make a lot of artificial mechanics that makes it totally not worth it.


-1, since it's like with archery. You will either make such thief too OP or too useless.
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Re: Theifs and Soldiers, Ending Binary Sieges

Postby Granger » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:36 pm

Aceb wrote:It is impossible to balance in real-time based game unless You make a lot of artificial mechanics that makes it totally not worth it.

-1, since it's like with archery. You will either make such thief too OP or too useless.

Along that logic they should remove all combat moves and make it a simple (total LP*total FEP) comparison between the opponents...
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Re: Theifs and Soldiers, Ending Binary Sieges

Postby eliminoid » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:47 pm

I'll just put bot near every gate that alarms to discord if locks are being picked.

Siege schedule is better idea imo.
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Re: Theifs and Soldiers, Ending Binary Sieges

Postby Aceb » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:50 pm

Granger wrote:
Aceb wrote:It is impossible to balance in real-time based game unless You make a lot of artificial mechanics that makes it totally not worth it.

-1, since it's like with archery. You will either make such thief too OP or too useless.

Along that logic they should remove all combat moves and make it a simple (total LP*total FEP) comparison between the opponents...


By that logic You shouldn't be back mod again. Over stretching my simple answer and opinion.

It's just plain bad and if You force me to explain myself, then let's do it greenman.

The biggest problem with Sieges is that they either result in the total destruction of somebodies game, or they fail to break through the walls. Because there are a few different reasons a person might want to get inside somebodies wall, I suggest splitting the needs into two different types of attack.


I'm always troubled by the "binary" outcome that a lot of You speak of while the rest is knocking their forehead with a middle finger.
Aurora siege was a case where it might been not binary, as from AFAIK, if Dani would give away crown, the city would be spared.
Some sieges I did to annoying people and deserved it they were powerless to stop me, since bigger hermit vs smaller bad person hermit, was often not being binary -> destruction or failure. Often it was between, either my goal of making the other person go away, but WITHOUT LOSING THEIR ENTIRE GAME or taking whatever I wanted from them that I needed. It's up to player(s) if they want to demolish everything, take what they want or whatever makes them feel good about themself. Total destruction is rather by product of spending so much time, that one often consider it a waste, but then again, You have people that don't care as long as their goal is fullfilled. Now, let's move on into further OP post.

Burglary Purposes

Killing AFK Red Handed People
Stealing stuff
Quick and low Impact surprise attacks

A player can become a Thief with the proper skills by right clicking their hearth fire. Thieves can pick gate locks, but can't carry much. They have reduced attack and move slower when on an enemies claim and can't fast travel at all. They must return to their hearth fire to stop being a theif. Thieves look visually distinct.


So, more holes to kill Trollex offline? Literally, You might drop like 16 claims around someone's base, in hope they won't notice (and the chance for noticing drops as less player lives in particular base), then building up a small pali or don't even moving thief alt HF, just making it looks like random HF with rando claim. What of it that thief attack and move slower, looks different, if from OFFLINE PERSPECTIVE, IT DOESN'T MATTER. The distance to carry stuff from someone's base back and forth to HF will be very minimum, so distance becomes much irrevelant again.

So, You basically can make a throwaway alt thief, that can fuck up someone badly, what of it that You won't bash the kiln, if You can steal the anvil, precious higher quality stuff for no cost? Again, the example I often bring up. I'm buying very good anvil. Few hours later I'm going to sleep. The merchant turns into thief, comes into my base and steal the anvil back, thus I'm double fucked since not only payed for this, I already lost it since it takes +1 hour or a bit more to steal from me, unless I literally go full retard and build up 30 walls, place up several mineholes You have to jump back and forth with another set of 30 gates?
Last edited by Aceb on Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Theifs and Soldiers, Ending Binary Sieges

Postby Tamalak » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:51 pm

I'd love to see burglary/thieving, or really any kind of PvP that's zero sum and limited in consequence (instead of negative sum and catastrophic in consequence)

I feel like a fundamental issue with this game is that if it's too dangerous, I'll die and quit, and if it's too safe, I'll get bored with the endless q grind and quit. The only way to keep interest indefinitely is to have some kind of competition/conflict that doesn't end (or at least rarely end) in total loss.
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Re: Theifs and Soldiers, Ending Binary Sieges

Postby Jackwolf » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:30 pm

Mr_Bober wrote:I see a few major issues with a burglary system:
2. Burglary allows too much griefing. The idea of stealing a few objects is fine, but what about the other stuff? Thieves could dump everything you have to the ground, remove fodder from coops, empty all your barrels and garden pots, picking stuff from growing trees... [...]

3. Alt vaulting would become the norm. People already do this with stuff like keys or very valuable items. [...]

4. Gate lockpicking would allow anyone to enter. You could have 1 thief open it, and a bunch of warriors run in with rage to kill everyone. No thanks.

5. No matter how small your inventory, you can just get outside the claim, give the item to an alt, and teleport with him. Sure it takes a bit more time, but the stolen items will be gone on a non-thief alt who can even logout with it.


2; Current criminal system already allows for all of this, i don't terribly see how a change would make it more prevalent?

3; literally in your statement, people already do this. There would be no change aside from the fact that it's more plausible to steal.

4; Re-read the post. He even said that only the person who picked the gate can enter it.

5; Make redhanded tracked by the item as well as the person who took it? We already can track items, i doubt this would be hard. Plus it gives that added joke of "this item is /hot/" (aka stolen).

Aceb wrote:So, You basically can make a throwaway alt thief, that can fuck up someone badly, what of it that You won't bash the kiln, if You can steal the anvil, precious higher quality stuff for no cost? Again, the example I often bring up. I'm buying very good anvil. Few hours later I'm going to sleep. The merchant turns into thief, comes into my base and steal the anvil back, thus I'm double fucked since not only payed for this, I already lost it since it takes +1 hour or a bit more to steal from me, unless I literally go full retard and build up 30 walls, place up several mineholes You have to jump back and forth with another set of 30 gates?


Re-read post. Lifted items unable to be taken through lockpicked gates.
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Re: Theifs and Soldiers, Ending Binary Sieges

Postby Aceb » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:46 pm

All it takes is one open gate that wasn't lockpicked and isn't visitor, for a thief to lift and bring it into area where other character can just take it and run away. A lot of settlements have some inner-inner gates open. Not to say, a thief could find slave keys inside and close-open back gates that were lockpicked to enable passing by with lifting. So we would be forced back to alt-key meta.
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Re: Theifs and Soldiers, Ending Binary Sieges

Postby Granger » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:11 pm

Aceb wrote:So we would be forced back to alt-key meta.

I was under the impression that we're already there, with correctly setup visitor gates the only key you need is to access safe houses (that delay the one chasing you) where you can drop combat to hearth to safety...
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Re: Theifs and Soldiers, Ending Binary Sieges

Postby Aceb » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:02 pm

Granger wrote:
Aceb wrote:So we would be forced back to alt-key meta.

I was under the impression that we're already there, with correctly setup visitor gates the only key you need is to access safe houses (that delay the one chasing you) where you can drop combat to hearth to safety...


For Master Key it will always be, but slaves keys during W10 and even now, during W11, in even the "pro" villages happens to be storaged in containers for villagers to grab and use, spare keys etc.
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Re: Theifs and Soldiers, Ending Binary Sieges

Postby Mr_Bober » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:05 pm

Jackwolf wrote:2; Current criminal system already allows for all of this, i don't terribly see how a change would make it more prevalent?

No it doesn't. Current criminal system relies on siege. He's suggesting you can pretty much by-pass palisades, meaning it won't take you 24h+ to get in and grief.

Jackwolf wrote:3; literally in your statement, people already do this. There would be no change aside from the fact that it's more plausible to steal.

Few people do it now, with few valuables. If palisades were to become ineffective against thieves, everyone would do this for anything half-valuable.
Right now you might alt-vault gold, if this becomes a thing you'll alt-vault any decent q metal, for example.

Jackwolf wrote:4; Re-read the post. He even said that only the person who picked the gate can enter it.

And how would that work? Gates are not like houses, it's not something you interact with to get inside. The interaction is to open it, and while open people and animals can walk past it. Would animals be locked in somehow too, even if the gate was open? What about other people with permits? And what if I close it, can the thief reopen it from inside, or does he have to lockpick it again?

Jackwolf wrote:5; Make redhanded tracked by the item as well as the person who took it? We already can track items, i doubt this would be hard. Plus it gives that added joke of "this item is /hot/" (aka stolen).

Can you summon a non-thief that has a "hot" item on himself? Because if not, they can just alt-vault the loot too.
Then again, especially with continents, tracking items is less efficient. A good thief could just spread them across multiple alts, and it would be close to impossible for you to track everything.
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