Coins, an explanation.

[Jesteroz]

Recently I have been reading Adam Smith's A Wealth of Nations. Today, I remembered this game existed. These two happenings have resulted in a coincidence where I looked up if coins exist in this game, in an effort to learn about the economy of the virtual society found within. I read this wiki page: https://havenandhearth.fandom.com/wiki/Coin and immediately realized the problem with coins in this game, by relating it to the philosophies and observations laid out by Smith in his work.

Let me first summarize why coins have failed to be useful in this game, according to the wiki page: Simply, they are too much trouble to make, and do not serve a useful purpose. They have no value in use, and no value in exchange. The reason they have no value in use is self-explanatory, but to emphasize, it is because they cannot physically be used to accomplish any task and are not inherently wanted by a person. The reason they have no value in exchange is partially derived from their lack of value in use, but also because the labor cost to make them outweighs the power of purchase they command over the economy. The only use at the present moment seems to not be useful in such a sparse world as this old one, which is that use from being of the role of short change.

In real life, so-called ancient times to be specific, similar to the current game world, according to the wiki (as I am not a player myself at the moment), raw bullion, or bars of metal were exchanged in preference to coins. The reason that this practice eventually died out is due to two main factors that are not present in the haven and hearth mechanics: the requirements of weighting and assaying. To break it down simply, the following analysis. The main reason coins were initially created in real life, is because people did not know if the bars of metal they were bartering for were actually made of the metal they expect them to be composed of. Fraud, scams, and tricks were all present and common. A government stamp ensured a seller that the purchaser was using real precious metal, be is silver or copper or other, and not some trickster alloy. This is not present in the haven and hearth world, and by easily mousing over an item I presume it is entirely possible to assay and ascertain the material of which a bar is composed within seconds. Take that as you might for an idea, whether it be one for stamping or for alloying or for both.

The second reason coins were made was actually addressed later in history, which is that of weighting. Accurate instruments are required in order to weight the mass of metal being bargained with. Eventually, the weight or mass of a coin was standardized by feudal governments. In haven and hearth, this is already accomplished by bars. A person can clearly see how much metal is present in a trade, and there is no weighting question considered.

So, the combination of a lack of weighting requirement (as the amount of metal is clearly defined in the game's mechanics, and is not questioned), and the lack of assaying requirement (there is no possibility for suspicious alloys, and no requirement for officiated stamps), means that coins are virtually useless in the game's economy, and the economy is perpetually stuck in the same age of improvement as the ancient roman kingdom (not even the empire, mind you).

I will concede, that while coins do not fulfill this role in real life, that coins fulfill a role in the game, that which I mentioned earlier, which is short change. Utilizing coins, a buyer does not have to buy in bulk a set of commodities, and can purchase in more precise quantities due to a dividend of currency provided by the smaller sizes of metal provided by coins. However, if any alterations are made to the game based on the weighting issue above, this role that coins currently fill will be useless, because just as in real life, I would imagine metal could be divided into smaller amounts without making it into official coins.

I suppose I would propose the following changes, though forgive me if my ignorance of the game itself shows in these suggestions, for the last time I played this game was long ago and for a short time then. The changes are:

1. Make it possible to alloy precious metals with coarser metals, or just metals with any of each other in general, and do not display the specifics of the alloy upon simply mousing over, some assaying process could and should be implemented.
2. Do not count quantities of metals in integers, and/or do not display the quantity upon a simple mousing over. A floating value should be used to mechanically express quantity of metal (forgive me if it already is this way), and the amount should not be precisely discernible without some form of weight measuring tools. Of course, a glance could give some idea (qualitative measurements, such as, but not limited to: a color and texture description, phrases such as "a lot", "a little", "a handful", etc.), but a measuring skill or tool would be needed for accurate figures.
3. Make the coin creating machine customizable, so that each coin machine can print a different design (mechanically, this could be limited to a message upon observation or some other abstraction), that way each nation can print its "own currency". This would also progress the game towards a more national focus and less tribal focus as each government would need to define and assay the metals used in their coins, as well as provide their own stamp, and for some common folk, this stamp may be the only way they fully trust a buyer, advancing the notions of both government and currency.

That's all my thoughts for now, I hope someone thinks this was at least interesting to read, but I especially hope the game developers take notice and make these or similarly intended changes.

[MrBunzy]

I think coins work fine. Gold quills became a pretty standard currency throughout all of last world. They add a good deal of convenience to trade through barter stands. Could be neat if you could stack them over 100 though, for even more convenience.

[loleznub]

Putting aside the fact this is the only post you've got, it's relatively clear you don't know what you're talking about. (/thread)

Coins have value just like how old currencies had value. You can smelt them back into a bar of the given type of metal it is, if you have 100 coins of them.

For every 100 gold quills there was last world, the CF had used a bar of gold to make them. Gold has a pretty stable value, as does silver, which is where the value of these coins come from.

It's simple economics, as the value of the coins is directly correlated to the price of gold. In most cases, a gold bar is worth 100 pts, which means each gold coin is worth 1pt. These points can then be used to purchase various items instead of just bartering. Same with silver coins, except the exchange rate is normally 25 pt per bar, or 4 silver coins for every 1 gold coin.

The system as is, doesn't really have any flaws. It's up to the players to create a standardized market where players everywhere can come and trade.

[Jesteroz]

You’re attempting to argue with me, but are not arguing any of the original points of the post. In fact, nothing that you said has barely any to do with what I said. This has nothing to do with deflamation of currency.

Anyways, everything I said in my original post is based on the preface laid out in that wiki page I linked, which is the assumption that the value of exchange of coins is outweighed by the cost of labor in order to procure them. If that is false, then the post is moot. If it is true, then everything I said stands.

What you have just attempted to argue is in no way related to what I am talking about.

[Ardennesss]

You’re attempting to argue with me, but are not arguing any of the original points of the post. In fact, nothing that you said has barely any to do with what I said. This has nothing to do with deflamation of currency.

Anyways, everything I said in my original post is based on the preface laid out in that wiki page I linked, which is the assumption that the value of exchange of coins is outweighed by the cost of labor in order to procure them. If that is false, then the post is moot. If it is true, then everything I said stands.

What you have just attempted to argue is in no way related to what I am talking about.

You sound like you're fun at parties.

[Jesteroz]

I came here to offer my ideas for constructive discussion, I wrote an explanation which took a while, and I get half assed comment replies from people who neglected to read the post, and would prefer to argue and bicker.

Well, I suppose this is relatively average conduct for an internet forum.

[Ardennesss]

I suppose I would propose the following changes, though forgive me if my ignorance of the game itself shows in these suggestions, for the last time I played this game was long ago and for a short time then. The changes are:

People are just pointing out the obvious, that suggesting changes to a game you don't play and haven't played since "long ago" is silly. In addition to coins allowing you to sell metal bars in 1/100th fractions, you could also just melt the nugget itself into 1/10th nuggets and sell those instead. If you want more resolution than 1/10th of a bar, just.. make coins? It seems like you want the system changed for no other reason than historical accuracy or some crap.

[Dakkan]

Let me first summarize why coins have failed to be useful in this game, according to the wiki page...

Coins are not worthless at all. And this thread is going into my favorites. Please continue to suggest ideas, they are appreciated!

[ricky]

The changes are:
1. Make it possible to alloy precious metals with coarser metals, or just metals with any of each other in general, and do not display the specifics of the alloy upon simply mousing over, some assaying process could and should be implemented.
2. Do not count quantities of metals in integers, and/or do not display the quantity upon a simple mousing over. A floating value should be used to mechanically express quantity of metal (forgive me if it already is this way), and the amount should not be precisely discernible without some form of weight measuring tools. Of course, a glance could give some idea (qualitative measurements, such as, but not limited to: a color and texture description, phrases such as "a lot", "a little", "a handful", etc.), but a measuring skill or tool would be needed for accurate figures.
3. Make the coin creating machine customizable, so that each coin machine can print a different design (mechanically, this could be limited to a message upon observation or some other abstraction), that way each nation can print its "own currency". This would also progress the game towards a more national focus and less tribal focus as each government would need to define and assay the metals used in their coins, as well as provide their own stamp, and for some common folk, this stamp may be the only way they fully trust a buyer, advancing the notions of both government and currency.

1. is an interesting idea to mix metals, but the notion of 'defrauding' individuals with imperfect coins isnt possible because of 3

2. weights vs integers is functionally idential because 100 coins = 1 bar always. perhaps in real life it was infeasible to make 100s upon 100s of coins from precious metals, so larger coins of larger value were used. here however, it's a reversible process with no cost. granularity of subjective coin qualities arent possible because of 3.

3. the coin mahcine is customizable. coins can be stamped with a unique name which will not stack with other coins that have the same name, but not the same mint. you can try to make fake coins, but the tools used for detection of this are instant - you cant stack different coins and barter stands wont accept foriegn coins. if the 'nation' controls the mint, it controls all aspects of the minting process. you can maybe make an argument that the nation can make 'fake' coins using mixed metals, but to that extent the nation itself must be willing to defraud all the people who use their currency.

E: http://ringofbrodgar.com/wiki/Coins
the other wiki you used hasnt been updated in years, check your thoughts against this instead.

[loleznub]

You’re attempting to argue with me, but are not arguing any of the original points of the post. In fact, nothing that you said has barely any to do with what I said. This has nothing to do with deflamation of currency.

Anyways, everything I said in my original post is based on the preface laid out in that wiki page I linked, which is the assumption that the value of exchange of coins is outweighed by the cost of labor in order to procure them. If that is false, then the post is moot. If it is true, then everything I said stands.

What you have just attempted to argue is in no way related to what I am talking about.

Lmao, let me break this down further for you then since you seem incapable of observing how simple this is.

Recently I have been reading Adam Smith's A Wealth of Nations. Today, I remembered this game existed. These two happenings have resulted in a coincidence where I looked up if coins exist in this game, in an effort to learn about the economy of the virtual society found within. I read this wiki page: https://havenandhearth.fandom.com/wiki/Coin and immediately realized the problem with coins in this game, by relating it to the philosophies and observations laid out by Smith in his work.

Removed a pointless opener that attempted to make OP sound somewhat intelligent

Let me first summarize why coins have failed to be useful in this game, according to the wiki page: Simply, they are too much trouble to make, and do not serve a useful purpose. They have no value in use, and no value in exchange.

See my first post, because even though you say

You’re attempting to argue with me, but are not arguing any of the original points of the post. In fact, nothing that you said has barely any to do with what I said. This has nothing to do with deflamation of currency.

my reply proves you wrong directly. Because of this, the rest of your thread is ultimately pointless. Coins have their worth directly linked to the amount of effort put into gaining them. Iron being the easiest (i.e worthless), silver being relatively worth something as it's a precious metal and semi-difficult to come across, and gold being the most valuable for obvious reasons.

The reason they have no value in use is self-explanatory, but to emphasize, it is because they cannot physically be used to accomplish any task and are not inherently wanted by a person. The reason they have no value in exchange is partially derived from their lack of value in use, but also because the labor cost to make them outweighs the power of purchase they command over the economy.

coins by themselves are indeed worth "nothing" much in the same sense USD is worth nothing. However, when there is something backing the currency (i.e GOLD BARS for BOTH currencies), they then start to be worth something.
The labor cost is in the sense that someone, somewhere, had to spend tens, if not hundred of hours mining for gold/silver to then make said coins.

The only use at the present moment seems to not be useful in such a sparse world as this old one, which is that use from being of the role of short change.

Oh hey something else I addressed in my original post, but I guess OP doesn't know how to read /shrug. "It's up to the players to create a standardized market where players everywhere can come and trade."

In real life, so-called ancient times to be specific, similar to the current game world, according to the wiki (as I am not a player myself at the moment), raw bullion, or bars of metal were exchanged in preference to coins. The reason that this practice eventually died out is due to two main factors that are not present in the haven and hearth mechanics: the requirements of weighting and assaying. To break it down simply, the following analysis. The main reason coins were initially created in real life, is because people did not know if the bars of metal they were bartering for were actually made of the metal they expect them to be composed of. Fraud, scams, and tricks were all present and common. A government stamp ensured a seller that the purchaser was using real precious metal, be is silver or copper or other, and not some trickster alloy. This is not present in the haven and hearth world, and by easily mousing over an item I presume it is entirely possible to assay and ascertain the material of which a bar is composed within seconds. Take that as you might for an idea, whether it be one for stamping or for alloying or for both.

The second reason coins were made was actually addressed later in history, which is that of weighting. Accurate instruments are required in order to weight the mass of metal being bargained with. Eventually, the weight or mass of a coin was standardized by feudal governments. In haven and hearth, this is already accomplished by bars. A person can clearly see how much metal is present in a trade, and there is no weighting question considered.

So, the combination of a lack of weighting requirement (as the amount of metal is clearly defined in the game's mechanics, and is not questioned), and the lack of assaying requirement (there is no possibility for suspicious alloys, and no requirement for officiated stamps),

removed fluff that doesn't have any meaning behind it, as the OPs main point of arguement has already been debunked. OPS lack of knowledge led to this, as seen through admitting above where I have underlined. People that don't play the game and have no knowledge on how things work, have no right to make posts to change aspects of the game, especially when nothing is wrong with it in the first place.

means that coins are virtually useless in the game's economy, and the economy is perpetually stuck in the same age of improvement as the ancient roman kingdom (not even the empire, mind you).

Gee whiz, my original post already went over this again..

I will concede, that while coins do not fulfill this role in real life, that coins fulfill a role in the game, that which I mentioned earlier, which is short change. Utilizing coins, a buyer does not have to buy in bulk a set of commodities, and can purchase in more precise quantities due to a dividend of currency provided by the smaller sizes of metal provided by coins. However, if any alterations are made to the game based on the weighting issue above, this role that coins currently fill will be useless, because just as in real life, I would imagine metal could be divided into smaller amounts without making it into official coins.

Removed additional fluff that is honestly more contradicting to OPs original statement of "coins having no purpose", but yet now stating they do in fact have a purpose???

I suppose I would propose the following changes, though forgive me if my ignorance of the game itself shows in these suggestions, for the last time I played this game was long ago and for a short time then. The changes are:

1. Make it possible to alloy precious metals with coarser metals, or just metals with any of each other in general, and do not display the specifics of the alloy upon simply mousing over, some assaying process could and should be implemented.
2. Do not count quantities of metals in integers, and/or do not display the quantity upon a simple mousing over. A floating value should be used to mechanically express quantity of metal (forgive me if it already is this way), and the amount should not be precisely discernible without some form of weight measuring tools. Of course, a glance could give some idea (qualitative measurements, such as, but not limited to: a color and texture description, phrases such as "a lot", "a little", "a handful", etc.), but a measuring skill or tool would be needed for accurate figures.
3. Make the coin creating machine customizable, so that each coin machine can print a different design (mechanically, this could be limited to a message upon observation or some other abstraction), that way each nation can print its "own currency". This would also progress the game towards a more national focus and less tribal focus as each government would need to define and assay the metals used in their coins, as well as provide their own stamp, and for some common folk, this stamp may be the only way they fully trust a buyer, advancing the notions of both government and currency.

That's all my thoughts for now, I hope someone thinks this was at least interesting to read, but I especially hope the game developers take notice and make these or similarly intended changes.

Same this as I stated above, removed irrelevant things. People that don't play the game and have no knowledge of game mechanics and how coins have value are incapable of providing any type of viable input, let alone defend such an idea.

Responses in Large Bold Words.

Thanks for your input, try not to be too depressed about wasting your time. Good news is, if this is what you want in the game, Salem already has it. All the way to the debasement of currency. Best part about it though, is you can even purchase it with real life money