Food & Level Scaling Rework

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: Food & Level Scaling Rework

Postby borka » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:57 pm

DDDsDD999 wrote:
kirione wrote:We remove satiations.

-If we remove satiations i feel the character progression in hafen would become a space race to thousands stat man and mass production factory of the mathematically best food for a certain build/attributes instead of a well designed village with a variety of roles,crops,animals and cooking methods.

In case you didn't already know, it's already like this. Satiations barely promote variety of food.



pssst ... don't ever watch him eating ... :-P
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Re: Food & Level Scaling Rework

Postby kirione » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:47 am

DDDsDD999 wrote:
kirione wrote:We remove satiations.

-If we remove satiations i feel the character progression in hafen would become a space race to thousands stat man and mass production factory of the mathematically best food for a certain build/attributes instead of a well designed village with a variety of roles,crops,animals and cooking methods.

In case you didn't already know, it's already like this. Satiations barely promote variety of food.



Only to a certain extent,hear me out.the current satiations reset daily and therefore it doesnt really apply if said player doesnt eat alot,allowing the satiations to reset and having a huge fep gain multiplier from hunger.satiations are only a problem for players to approach the stat building with a quantity mindset instead of quality.

BUT i agree with you that there currently is a lack of variety in food eaten but the proposed change wont help.i feel the variety problem can be solved by,first

1)introducing more foods in different category that provides different attributes for example perc and int in sausage category or str and agi in vegetables etc.

2)instead of reseting satiations daily or having the last 3 satiations reset like last time,maybe satiations dont decay or reset,instead every percentage increase of a satiation decreases all other by one percent keeping a constant need and reward of having a as balanced diet as possible.

But with said mechanic still needs the fep table being varied(giving players a possibility in building a complex diet) and balanced(making the stat gain enjoyable instead of seen as being forced to eat a lower fep gaining food)
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Re: Food & Level Scaling Rework

Postby pawnchito » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:04 am

Ya'll are wild.
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Re: Food & Level Scaling Rework

Postby pppp » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:48 am

DDDsDD999 wrote:
kirione wrote:We remove satiations.

-If we remove satiations i feel the character progression in hafen would become a space race to thousands stat man and mass production factory of the mathematically best food for a certain build/attributes instead of a well designed village with a variety of roles,crops,animals and cooking methods.

In case you didn't already know, it's already like this. Satiations barely promote variety of food.

That's because there are a few OP foods in cheese group and some autumn steaks and then another few that come close and then an ocean of mediocre and bad foods. It is not optimal to use anything than a fistful of recipes. There is a huge job waiting to be done to balance bazillion of food variants. To outline the idea, one should first define tiers of foods and relevant fep/hunger values for each tier, then generate list of all variants as a table in database then filter out from that table all stuff that falls outside intended ranges and try to tweak it to push it back into confinement. Probably max an hour of work of database guy to spot all the offenders, and days of work to find out how to manage the mess.

I mean, blatant offenders are easy to spot in cookbook, but I am pretty sure there are hundreds of misplaced recipes in the mediocre mass, that go below the radar.
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Re: Food & Level Scaling Rework

Postby wonder-ass » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:58 pm

pppp wrote:
DDDsDD999 wrote:
kirione wrote:We remove satiations.

-If we remove satiations i feel the character progression in hafen would become a space race to thousands stat man and mass production factory of the mathematically best food for a certain build/attributes instead of a well designed village with a variety of roles,crops,animals and cooking methods.

In case you didn't already know, it's already like this. Satiations barely promote variety of food.

That's because there are a few OP foods in cheese group and some autumn steaks and then another few that come close and then an ocean of mediocre and bad foods. It is not optimal to use anything than a fistful of recipes. There is a huge job waiting to be done to balance bazillion of food variants. To outline the idea, one should first define tiers of foods and relevant fep/hunger values for each tier, then generate list of all variants as a table in database then filter out from that table all stuff that falls outside intended ranges and try to tweak it to push it back into confinement. Probably max an hour of work of database guy to spot all the offenders, and days of work to find out how to manage the mess.

I mean, blatant offenders are easy to spot in cookbook, but I am pretty sure there are hundreds of misplaced recipes in the mediocre mass, that go below the radar.


dont blame us blame jorb for saturating the pool with so much god damn food that its hard to keep track of whats balanced and whats not. top foods were stakes/filets/cheese/bollocks the rest is situational.
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Re: Food & Level Scaling Rework

Postby Zentetsuken » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:24 am

any kind of food rebalancing would go against the grain of the very idea behind the satiation removal. I don't know if it's a last ditch effort to spark some fun in to this world or if it's a permanent change, but jorb has said that he's removing satiations so people can just pump huge numbers for funsies.

I don't think there would be a way to really fix the "only a couple foods are actually good" situation beyond a major overhaul. Even a rework of every food and its feps would only realistically have a couple of good top tier foods added to the list for each stat.

The only way to make ALL foods meaningful would be to add some kind of tiered eating system where people are forced to eat different foods alongside different stat clusters, OR copy Salem's craving system.

Without something major and intrusive like this there is always going to be 100s of foods uncrafted and dozens of ingredients nobody ever cares about.
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Re: Food & Level Scaling Rework

Postby vatas » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:03 pm

I've been meaning to mention Salem's cravings system for a while now. Basically the characters will "crave" a certain food and eating it will increase all Humours by one which is roughly equivalent to all Attributes increasing by one. This is huge and would probably be broken at 1000 stats, dunno how Salem handles it other than giving people with low stats easier ones like "eat berry" or "eat specific roast fish filet" and with really high stats you need to eat one of the hardest to find/craft foods in the game. In Haven I can only think of Troll parts as the "highest tier" food (at least in terms of rarity.)
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Re: Food & Level Scaling Rework

Postby kirione » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:54 am

vatas wrote:I've been meaning to mention Salem's cravings system for a while now. Basically the characters will "crave" a certain food and eating it will increase all Humours by one which is roughly equivalent to all Attributes increasing by one. This is huge and would probably be broken at 1000 stats, dunno how Salem handles it other than giving people with low stats easier ones like "eat berry" or "eat specific roast fish filet" and with really high stats you need to eat one of the hardest to find/craft foods in the game. In Haven I can only think of Troll parts as the "highest tier" food (at least in terms of rarity.)



Maybe there could be reworked high tier food that uses lower/mid tier food as ingredients.i always found it odd that the food we made always just goes through one stage of cooking when in real life some of the more lavish and elaborate dishes takes hours if not days of prep and actual cooking.

I really dont know much about european fine dining so i dont have any examples.but combining different tiers of food to make another higher tier food could be looked at like example breads(bark bread/fresh bread/seed crisp whatever)(low tier food no one ears by itself)+lettuce+roasted meat=burger
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Re: Food & Level Scaling Rework

Postby Necroliter » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:09 am

Please consider potential impact on mining progression and all other stat-dependent mechanics.
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Re: Food & Level Scaling Rework

Postby boreial » Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:02 am

Personally I would like to see foods reworked in a more linear fashoin, along the lines of the following as an example

Sausages buff STR
Salads Buff INT
Fruits (pies or whateve) buff CON
Meat Dishes (other than sausages) Buff WILL

ETC ETC.

(not this 3,4 5 different FEP's per 1 piece of food that just confuses new players)

Each class of food could also have a high and low energy gain to appease the working classes (miners, tree farmers)

'And I don't mind satations just how harsh they are, perhaps lower them to 2% sats with a 50/50 chance of aqquiring that 2%

And Re-work the FEP's on the low tech food, (increase the energy gain, but lower the fep gain?) and the high tech food could have better fep gains with lower energy gain
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