Food & Level Scaling Rework

[pppp]

Also, this can easily be limited by putting a hard and low limit to the amount of characters per account. If we could only make say 5 characters per account then at the very least it would limit some of the hibernating armies, OR it would get more people subbing multiple accounts which sounds like a good thing.

Nah, it won't cap number of alts. There will be always workarounds, like sub for one month, grind all chars to max, then switch to another account. But maybe this is the sought after sink for extra tokens

[dafels]

Nice, I support whatever idea that results in reducing the gap between no lifers and normal players in combat.
It is what the game has needed for a long time and I think it is a step forward for the game as a whole.

[wonder-ass]

Why still insistence on a root based formula? x * stat / (stat + z) would be much better.

what does each of these variables represent?

X is mass stat effect, z is basically speed of approach. Let's take HP for example. If X is 1000 then max theoretical HP is 1000. But you can never actually get there, you're only approaching it in ever smaller increments as you increase your Con. How you approach it depends on z. If z is 10, you have 500HP at 10 Con, 909HP at 100 Con and 990HP at 1000 Con. If z is 100, you have 91HP at 10 Con, 500HP at 100 Con and 909HP at 1000 Con. If z is 1000, you have 10HP at 10 Con, 91HP at 100 Con and 500HP at 1000 Con. Basically you can never actually have 1000HP, but as your Con approaches infinity you approach 1000HP, and the pace of approach is determined by z. The idea is to make early gains fairly fast and tryharding always gives you an advantage, but never an insurmountable one, so you can have good enough stats to beat a titan in a fight even you have a life outside the game, as long as you manage to actually outplay him in combat.

but why this over statcap? what valua does it add other than people that like seeing numbers go up get to see their numbers go up.
why not just cap pve/pvp stats at x number and let it grow infinite?

[pppp]

but why this over statcap? what valua does it add other than people that like seeing numbers go up get to see their numbers go up.
why not just cap pve/pvp stats at x number and let it grow infinite?

It's a round-edge version of <cap pve/pvp stats at x number and let it grow infinite> It is not <growth to some point and then zero effect>. Instead at any point you can say each stat increase adds tiny meaningless bit to effective stat. In other words newbs will get like 80% of max, casual veterans will get like 90% of max and nolifers will be struggling to go past 95% of max (smart nolifers will probably not, assuming "smart nolifer" is not an oxymoron). So nolifers will have some advantage over casuals but this advantage will be in 10-15% range. Ofc making two 80% chars will be way cheaper and more effective than making one 90% char.

The other important point is the same logic can apply to qualities. The effect of quality can be capped even if quality would go into thousands. At some point quality race becomes purely abstract dick size contest but Salem experience says people will go for it. People were still grinding crops purity past 90% (I think it is now more than 95%) even if that makes miniscule difference.

[Archiplex]

But then that results in a large period of stat growth where the stat does absolutely nothing.

Yes. That's the whole point of choosing function with asymptotic maximum. You just can't grind beyond certain number, or more precisely, no matter how far you grind, the result will be mostly the same. That is to make unlimited grinding pointless, so people stop grinding and then complaining about grind. Infinite stat grind is the top reason to quit. Find yourself different activity in game once you hit the point where grind is pointless.

It's an inelegant solution that I just don't see the need to use THAT formula with.

I do agree about grind effectiveness needing to be reigned in; but the 4th root system does just that.

Ad nauseam, the problem with reducing efficiency of grind to non-zero is it forces people to grind more to compensate for lost efficiency. Problem with 4th root is it still allows infinite stats, if only the person could eat right foods in right moments, preferably using bot for best optimization.

No, no; maybe I misunderstood, or you did; but setting a baseline minimum for the stat means that EARLY ON, growth does nothing.

For example, if z is 1000 in that system, 10 con is 10 hp; but if we set 'minimum' hp to 100, there would be a huge range of con levels where an increase does nothing, and THEN suddenly starts to do something.

[Potjeh]

No, baseline just offsets it up. To take the 10HP at 10 Con example, you basically just add 90 to whatever result you get from the formula, so it's 100HP at 10 Con. You can change x to 910 so the "cap" is still 1000HP. Just type formulas into Google to see the graph of how HP scales with Con. Y in the formula I posted would be 0.09 in this case, though you could also extract it before multiplication to simplify, ie a formula like y + x * stat / (stat + z) (y is 90 in this case given same z). Though I think a z of 1000 is excessive, you need to get like 5k Con to hit basically flatline with such high value.

Anyway, another nice thing about asymptotic cap is that it limits the damage of exploits like spiced roasting spits. People could still use exploits to gain insane stats, but the actual benefit from it would be minimal. And let's face it, there's always going to be some sort of exploits for gaining ridiculous stats.

[wonder-ass]

but why this over statcap? what valua does it add other than people that like seeing numbers go up get to see their numbers go up.
why not just cap pve/pvp stats at x number and let it grow infinite?

It's a round-edge version of <cap pve/pvp stats at x number and let it grow infinite> It is not <growth to some point and then zero effect>. Instead at any point you can say each stat increase adds tiny meaningless bit to effective stat. In other words newbs will get like 80% of max, casual veterans will get like 90% of max and nolifers will be struggling to go past 95% of max (smart nolifers will probably not, assuming "smart nolifer" is not an oxymoron). So nolifers will have some advantage over casuals but this advantage will be in 10-15% range. Ofc making two 80% chars will be way cheaper and more effective than making one 90% char.

The other important point is the same logic can apply to qualities. The effect of quality can be capped even if quality would go into thousands. At some point quality race becomes purely abstract dick size contest but Salem experience says people will go for it. People were still grinding crops purity past 90% (I think it is now more than 95%) even if that makes miniscule difference.

that 10% doesnt even matter in group fights its basically irrelevant. Idk its basically the same as statcap so idc much this or that.

[kirione]

We remove satiations.

-If we remove satiations i feel the character progression in hafen would become a space race to thousands stat man and mass production factory of the mathematically best food for a certain build/attributes instead of a well designed village with a variety of roles,crops,animals and cooking methods.

Satiations also work hand in hand with hunger to put a greater emphasize on quality of food rather than quantity,as well as bonfire feasting and symbels and furniture.
I think the reason why most players dislike the current satiations system despite its role in discouraging the stat race is because its a negative feedback loop and its rng nature.

Instead of decreasing fep gain from increase in satiation perhaps it could be turned into a positive feedback loop by buffing fep gain from low satiation and decreasing the standard amount of fep gain from the food.(im not advocating for higher fep gains from eating,the fep gain from eating the same food for the first time for that day at 0 percent before and after the change should be the same,just flip the formula around if you get what i mean)

Lastly the rng nature makes early game character/stat building unfun as first day progression can vary wildy due to a series of bad roll,and in the long run hurts a crucial aspect to character progression in hafen,planning your meals and stat building due to the unpredictable nature of it.simply remove the chance and make it a fixed integer.


Drinks are changed to buff particular food categories, rather than heal satiations.

-Would be good in promoting quality over quantity mentality which is important in my opinion because from my experience playing back in 2014 was feeling this thrill in building better symbels and cooking better food,getting ready the drinks and smoking pipe,lighting a bonfire and calling my mates to come online for a feast and jumping over all those hoops just to see the huge fep and hunger reduction i manage to stack instead of a grind to get as much food on the table as possible.


The formula for calculating HP is presently 100*√(CON/10). Combat damage, demolition damage, Agility comparisons, and HP calculations all use a square root. We rework the scaling of combat damage, demolition damage, Agility comparisons, and HP, to use a 4th root, rather than a square root, i.e. your HP would be 100*∜(CON/10). By way of example, 5k con would give ~472 HP under the suggested paradigm, rather than ~2236 HP as presently. We heal everyone on first login under the new system.

-like one of the forum member said i dont see a goal in this.im not sure why you feel a need to decrease the overall numbers,but one of the problems i might see is that new characters might feel discouraged from increasing constitution from not seeing much difference in hp from adding con.and in early game where numbers are small and formulas for damage etc. That rounds up,it might cause some balance issues.


We do something similar for additional HP from dungeons.
-not sure if that means bonus hp from clearing dungeons or being healed after completing one but perhaps differe t kind of buffs for clearing different dungeon could be looked at .

[kirione]

Why still insistence on a root based formula? x * stat / (stat + z) would be much better.

what does each of these variables represent?

X is mass stat effect, z is basically speed of approach. Let's take HP for example. If X is 1000 then max theoretical HP is 1000. But you can never actually get there, you're only approaching it in ever smaller increments as you increase your Con. How you approach it depends on z. If z is 10, you have 500HP at 10 Con, 909HP at 100 Con and 990HP at 1000 Con. If z is 100, you have 91HP at 10 Con, 500HP at 100 Con and 909HP at 1000 Con. If z is 1000, you have 10HP at 10 Con, 91HP at 100 Con and 500HP at 1000 Con. Basically you can never actually have 1000HP, but as your Con approaches infinity you approach 1000HP, and the pace of approach is determined by z. The idea is to make early gains fairly fast and tryharding always gives you an advantage, but never an insurmountable one, so you can have good enough stats to beat a titan in a fight even you have a life outside the game, as long as you manage to actually outplay him in combat.

I agree man this formula is so much better,it allows no lifer to do what they like which is stat race and gives them an small advantage over all others which can make all the difference in a fight but still allows others a fighting chance by playing smart or finding friends and outnumbering him instead of trying to kill one punch man

[DDDsDD999]

We remove satiations.

-If we remove satiations i feel the character progression in hafen would become a space race to thousands stat man and mass production factory of the mathematically best food for a certain build/attributes instead of a well designed village with a variety of roles,crops,animals and cooking methods.

In case you didn't already know, it's already like this. Satiations barely promote variety of food.