So i looked at your new combat system..

[MagicManICT]

If there was a separate entire branch of credos-like skills that could be obtained on a "choose A or B but not both" sort of basis it could mimic the free and un-classed feeling but offer a wide variety of unique fighting styles. Different moves with different ranges, speeds, defenses and bonuses. Maybe even different gear and weapon bonuses.

As much as I like the idea of classes in games, and this particular one to avoid going through the whole "I'm a cleric" "i'm a ranger" crap, the reality is they both lead down the same road of unbalanced gameplay, or at the very least, requiring a lot more effort to add balance to when it comes to PvP.

Just to note further, both class based and skill based progression have their places in games. I'm not sure that is here with the existing skill system. I'm not opposed to a complete redesign of it, but only if it makes things better than the current, and not simply a shift to the left or right of 'now.'

[overtyped]

If there was a separate entire branch of credos-like skills that could be obtained on a "choose A or B but not both" sort of basis it could mimic the free and un-classed feeling but offer a wide variety of unique fighting styles. Different moves with different ranges, speeds, defenses and bonuses. Maybe even different gear and weapon bonuses.

As much as I like the idea of classes in games, and this particular one to avoid going through the whole "I'm a cleric" "i'm a ranger" crap, the reality is they both lead down the same road of unbalanced gameplay, or at the very least, requiring a lot more effort to add balance to when it comes to PvP.

Just to note further, both class based and skill based progression have their places in games. I'm not sure that is here with the existing skill system. I'm not opposed to a complete redesign of it, but only if it makes things better than the current, and not simply a shift to the left or right of 'now.'

Its never been about balance its about fun. Balance is boring. Look at classic wow, you got a million people playing it and all wow is combat. The difference is, each class has something that they contribute that makes them worthwhile, even if they are worthless 1v1. Warrior sucks 1v1, yet in a bg with heals they are overpowered. If you try to balance combat to be equal in both 1v1 and group fights then all classes just feel the same and no classes can do anything better than another WHICH IS BORING!!!!!

AGAIN THIS IS A GAME, IT'S NOT ABOUT BALANCE IT'S ABOUT ENTERTAINING THE PEOPLE PLAYING IT! EQUALITY IS GREAT IN REAL LIFE, BUT NOT IN A GAME. AS LONG AS EVERY CLASS IS MORE USEFUL THAN ANOTHER IN SOME WAY, IT DOESNT MATTER IF ONE CLASS IS PLAYED MORE.

[wonder-ass]

id agree with you if it didnt take people multiple months of effort to get their character to a state of fighting chance.

[Zentetsuken]

id agree with you if it didnt take people multiple months of effort to get their character to a state of fighting chance.

If the idea of "builds/classes" is expanded I can see something as simple as sliders making a return to add an additional layer of uniqueness to your character. Along with class choices being permed like a credo I think this could make fighters a lot easier to build back up after a death.

Things like the legacy barbarism/civilization, death/life, martial/peace sliders could be tweaked to add/remove defense and attack power relative to how much experience you are willing to lose on death, so you can sort of gamble with your character based on how good you think you will be with the added power? This could be super fun when paired with a bunch of possible scenarios for what your class specifies that this power increase is actually boosting. Like maybe for certain classes it would add mobility and make you faster, for others it would really boost defense, for others it would really boost attack or attack range. etc etc

[Rexz]

If there was a separate entire branch of credos-like skills that could be obtained on a "choose A or B but not both" sort of basis it could mimic the free and un-classed feeling but offer a wide variety of unique fighting styles. Different moves with different ranges, speeds, defenses and bonuses. Maybe even different gear and weapon bonuses.

As much as I like the idea of classes in games, and this particular one to avoid going through the whole "I'm a cleric" "i'm a ranger" crap, the reality is they both lead down the same road of unbalanced gameplay, or at the very least, requiring a lot more effort to add balance to when it comes to PvP.

Just to note further, both class based and skill based progression have their places in games. I'm not sure that is here with the existing skill system. I'm not opposed to a complete redesign of it, but only if it makes things better than the current, and not simply a shift to the left or right of 'now.'

Its never been about balance its about fun. Balance is boring. Look at classic wow, you got a million people playing it and all wow is combat. The difference is, each class has something that they contribute that makes them worthwhile, even if they are worthless 1v1. Warrior sucks 1v1, yet in a bg with heals they are overpowered. If you try to balance combat to be equal in both 1v1 and group fights then all classes just feel the same and no classes can do anything better than another WHICH IS BORING!!!!!

AGAIN THIS IS A GAME, IT'S NOT ABOUT BALANCE IT'S ABOUT ENTERTAINING THE PEOPLE PLAYING IT! EQUALITY IS GREAT IN REAL LIFE, BUT NOT IN A GAME. AS LONG AS EVERY CLASS IS MORE USEFUL THAN ANOTHER IN SOME WAY, IT DOESNT MATTER IF ONE CLASS IS PLAYED MORE.

.

id agree with you if it didnt take people multiple months of effort to get their character to a state of fighting chance.

@Wonder-ass: agreed

Im almost 2 weeks into the game and I have killed maybe two or three things with my barehand, every single one of them I suffered injuries that took me multiple days in game to fully heal, and some I couldn't heal at all because I lacked the resources in the winter to heal them quickly. Now imagine working for months or over a year to build a character, and some person with the most perfect min/maxed character AND CLASS just bulldoze me in a couple hits. Yea, having no balanced gameplay in a game like this where progression is slow as snail is complete horseshit, go play a MOBA if you wanna pwn noobs so much...

I think it's hella dumb when people suggest ideas from other games that have a very different focus and mechanic compare to the current system we have in this game. Overhauling an entire system massively and add classes just to appeal to PVPers and Holy Trinity Warriors is a terrible move. If you're going to add suggestions that would heavily alter a system in this game, stop giving general fluffs and actually give detailed advices on how to IMPLEMENT, BALANCE, and INCORPORATE the new system into the game that is REALISTIC and not some romanticised ambitions and dreams of fiction FFS.

id agree with you if it didnt take people multiple months of effort to get their character to a state of fighting chance.

If the idea of "builds/classes" is expanded I can see something as simple as sliders making a return to add an additional layer of uniqueness to your character. Along with class choices being permed like a credo I think this could make fighters a lot easier to build back up after a death.

Things like the legacy barbarism/civilization, death/life, martial/peace sliders could be tweaked to add/remove defense and attack power relative to how much experience you are willing to lose on death, so you can sort of gamble with your character based on how good you think you will be with the added power? This could be super fun when paired with a bunch of possible scenarios for what your class specifies that this power increase is actually boosting. Like maybe for certain classes it would add mobility and make you faster, for others it would really boost defense, for others it would really boost attack or attack range. etc etc

Now this is actually a decent suggestion cuz it give some examples, although it could be a lot more detailed. Still no talk on how to balance classes though. Having speed is a huge buff in this game, if something is stronger than me and can chase me better than I can run away, it's a losing fight 100% of the time no matter what I do, for an example, so how would you balance something like that? Can people be more elaborate on balance please? Losing your progression and items in this game sucks so much more ass than the vast majority of other MMOs I've played in the last 20 years.

[Zentetsuken]

Now this is actually a decent suggestion cuz it give some examples, although it could be a lot more detailed. Still no talk on how to balance classes though. Having speed is a huge buff in this game, if something is stronger than me and can chase me better than I can run away, it's a losing fight 100% of the time no matter what I do, for an example, so how would you balance something like that? Can people be more elaborate on balance please? Losing your progression and items in this game sucks so much more ass than the vast majority of other MMOs I've played in the last 20 years.

I think that some strength/speed/range/defense/combat stance sort of triangle can probably be found within the class balancing. Presumably a very mobile character getting boosts from their sliders would be very difficult to catch, but perhaps there would be class/credo directions that would add something to properly match a fast character. For a person running away - maybe a fast shooting ranger? A fast axe thrower? Some type of character choice that specifically gives some sort of speed or combat synergy while on horseback? For a person chasing you - maybe some AOE moves that stun? Swinging type attacks that attack behind you even while moving? Ranger/throwing weapon specializations that allow for shooting behind you? Bear traps? environmental attacks like kicking up sand to cause disorienting controls or blindness? There are many possibilities. Obviously it would take a lot of time and effort to flesh out a true balance but I think most mmorpgs with classes are actively doing this even years and years in to the game development. Actively balancing classes as metas arise is a productive and normal way to develop an mmo and it sounds like an easier job than fully recreating combat from the ground up every couple years.

[DDDsDD999]

I think classes would suck in haven, I'd rather just have a system that allows a variety of combat decks. That way people can tailor their decks to fit the wide array of combat this game can entail. It lets you create your deck in a way that suits your character, for your play-style, for whatever size group you're with at the time (if any), and with a variety of possible ways to build "roles" in the group. This way you don't just meet some random person in the woods with the rock class, while you have the scissor class, so you're forced to run and can't fight back.

If classes were implemented, personal belief type sliders are the best system in terms of effort and fairness in class changing. And tying combat roles to credos or stats is dumb. Credos because they're credos and are inherently dumb. Stats because a simple balance change can ruin a character that was raised for months, possibly years (see: any time archery is changed).

[MagicManICT]

Its never been about balance its about fun. Balance is boring. Look at classic wow, you got a million people playing it and all wow is combat.

Sure, and look at how shit classic WoW PvP was. One could argue that is when WoW started to become un-fun--when they started focusing more on the competitive aspects of the arena and battlegrounds and then balancing the rest of the game around that.

Feel free to argue that balance doesn't matter when you can prove a bit more that you aren't one of these exploitative assholes that are going to shit on clueless noobs. (And that goes to anyone in this thread who would make the same arguement, so I'm not singling anyone out here.)

[Zentetsuken]

Its never been about balance its about fun. Balance is boring. Look at classic wow, you got a million people playing it and all wow is combat.

Sure, and look at how shit classic WoW PvP was. One could argue that is when WoW started to become un-fun--when they started focusing more on the competitive aspects of the arena and battlegrounds and then balancing the rest of the game around that.

Feel free to argue that balance doesn't matter when you can prove a bit more that you aren't one of these exploitative assholes that are going to shit on clueless noobs. (And that goes to anyone in this thread who would make the same arguement, so I'm not singling anyone out here.)

I think he means that absolute perfect precision engineered balance doesn't matter. Every mmorpg is trying to achieve this actively at all times, tweaking and updating individual moves within individual classes, nerfing and buffing with every update. This is the norm.

If a game panders to clueless noobs and makes them equally as threatening as a skilled, practiced pvper then what is the point in any of this new combat shit? Just make combat a stupid minigame like a literal rock/paper scissors match, let pure random chance decide the winner.

Point is, classes would be fun as fuck. There are dozens of playstyles within the realm of haven combat already, people who are scared to PvE and rely on boat and arrow hunting. People cheesing trolls and mammoths, people who are running around UAing boars on day 2, people who swear by MC, people who kite, people who swear by sword over b12, or CTC, etc. etc.

It's always been the case that within the same very skilled pvp groups there is pretty much 1 best deck, 1 best set of gear, and 1 meta build. Why not mix it up and let people who dont like PVE/PVP the chance to have a tanky character who can PvE without cheesing? Or a fast and mobile ranged fighter who can do the same?

I would be willing to bet that very, very few people kill bears with just simple 1 on 1 combat, they rather do some mixture of kiting, running and cheesy horseback or boat combat. Why do we just accept this?

I am positive that any added complexity or unique character combat choices that mimic classing would be well tested and given an endless stream of feedback on the forums so J&L could actively patch and balance as metas arise, just like literally every other mmo out there.

[MagicManICT]

If a game panders to clueless noobs and makes them equally as threatening as a skilled, practiced pvper then what is the point in any of this new combat shit? Just make combat a stupid minigame like a literal rock/paper scissors match, let pure random chance decide the winner.

Classes are pandering to clueless noobs. Look at all the games with classless systems or systems where class choice makes little difference. The learning curve is extremely steep, and it's very easy to screw up character builds (when there's a limited number of points to throw into a character).

What we need is the variety and counter-play that is talked about in the game. How we get there, I don't care, as I say, and if classes are the way to go, great, I'm fine with that. Just don't expect it to be any better than what has been presented in the past. What is missing is refinement and depth, not any given limitations that we've seen so far.