So i looked at your new combat system..

[Rexz]

If a game panders to clueless noobs and makes them equally as threatening as a skilled, practiced pvper then what is the point in any of this new combat shit? Just make combat a stupid minigame like a literal rock/paper scissors match, let pure random chance decide the winner.

Classes are pandering to clueless noobs. Look at all the games with classless systems or systems where class choice makes little difference. The learning curve is extremely steep, and it's very easy to screw up character builds (when there's a limited number of points to throw into a character).

What we need is the variety and counter-play that is talked about in the game. How we get there, I don't care, as I say, and if classes are the way to go, great, I'm fine with that. Just don't expect it to be any better than what has been presented in the past. What is missing is refinement and depth, not any given limitations that we've seen so far.

I mean if we need variety, that can still be achieved without hardlocking into a class right? If that's the case I'd like to see for there to be some pros and cons into funneling toward a specific "class", or rather, "playstyle" trait and gear so to speak like Zen suggested in some part of his other post. Just like in life there're pros and cons when you start to specialize in something, that should reflects more in the game when it come to identifying with specific playstyles that you want to try out and/or invest your effort into. I'd like to get more into this but at the moment I don't have concrete suggestions that I can share, perhaps later.

Also @Zen it's kinda funny that you mentioned rock/paper/scissor match because many PVP-enabled games with classes are pretty much balanced around the concept of rock/paper/scissor, with the best ones doing a better job of hiding it behind more layers of complex combat and gameplay mechanics that allow people to make mistakes and/or be outplayed by someone with quicker reaction timing, but it's still rock/paper/scissor in a nutshell with the mindgame and reaction part be more complex to keep it interesting.

Having more varied combat moves and additional mechanics that make combat more deep would definitely benefit the game I feel, but I would still argue against pidgeon-holeing people into a specific class or playstyle to achieve variety.

[Zentetsuken]

maybe instead of hardlocking, the idea of these pros and cons should be achieved with a bunch of sliders?

you are slower to attack but your hit radiuses are increase <<< ---------- >>> faster, with smaller attack radiuses

your run becomes slightly slower but you hit harder <<< ------ >>> run becomes faster but you hit weaker

you can perform ranged attacks like axe throwing but your cooldowns are longer <<< ----- >>> no ranged attacks but shorter cooldowns

your moves open for a bit more, but you close your own openings slower <<< ------ >>> your moves open for less but you close your own faster



some of these might be total shit suggestions but they are meant as examples, I'm sure that a more balanced and well thought out group of sliders can be imagined with a group effort and a lot of feedback

[azrid]

I'd rather just have a system that allows a variety of combat decks.

This.
I'd hate to see a typical class system in a unique game like this.

[overtyped]

I'd rather just have a system that allows a variety of combat decks.

This.
I'd hate to see a typical class system in a unique game like this.

You don't know what you want. No build+craft+Sandbox mmo has tried classes so it might unexpectedly be good, but trying what every other sandbox+build+crafting mmo has tried and failed with is foolish. We already know warrior vs warrior is boring, so why play a game where everyone has identical optimized decks?

[Rexz]

I'd rather just have a system that allows a variety of combat decks.

This.
I'd hate to see a typical class system in a unique game like this.

You don't know what you want. No build+craft+Sandbox mmo has tried classes so it might unexpectedly be good, but trying what every other sandbox+build+crafting mmo has tried and failed with is foolish. We already know warrior vs warrior is boring, so why play a game where everyone has identical optimized decks?

That's from a subjective viewpoint if you're trying to be objective about that statement.

The more you have segregated combat roles in a videogame, the higher the changes that you ,as devs and players, will have to deal with unbalanced gameplay and powercreep. I'm totally chill with having special combat abilities and roles delegated to specific playstyles and tools/weapons/gear being used, but it should not be locked behind a class-based path that you will have to choose and stick with. If you want to play a PVP and combat oriented MMORPG there are a ton of them out there, but do remember that power imbalance in those games are rampant due to in part by a class system, and that's what this game really need to avoid.

If classes are a must-have, the only two games I can think of that did a really great job with a flexible yet rich class/ability system would be Guild Wars 1 and ArcheAge, those two are great examples of how class/roles/abilities should be done. The abilities that you have access to are determined by the branch of specialization that you have selected, and you are free to swap out, test, and build your playstyle around.

[Zentetsuken]

That's from a subjective viewpoint if you're trying to be objective about that statement.

Everybody is arguing against classes based on their subjective understanding of what the words "classes" even means. I don't think anybody even suggested the normal cookie cutter class archetype found in classic rpgs, yet that seems to be what everybody is complaining about?


Haven stats are very different than traditional mmos and I think stats come in to a much more fundamental play in these games. Ranged classes and Tank classes usually don't boost the same stats or wear the same gear, you know?

Since this is not the case in Haven, I think we can achieve a very unique and customized version of "classes."

I don't think classes were even that viable before, but now with the addition of all these moves having different cooldown, directions, radiuses, etc. I think it leave a lot of room for variation.

People need to stop REEEEEing when they see the word "class" and rather think about how it can unique apply to haven. I've given many examples that nobody seems to have even read.

[Rexz]

I mean I'm not dismissing your ideas at all. We might very well be heading that way (toward different class/combat style) if combat is being more fleshed out as development is making progress in this area.

I'm just pointing out the risks of fatal flaw/s that can occur regarding the potential for imbalanced power dynamic in PvP, that occurs in a vast majority of games.
In the context of Haven, an imbalance that cause a lost in a fight is much more devastating - serious care should be considered, much feedsback needed, much testing should be implemented, tread super carefully, etc. etc.
In the context of Haven, again, broken gameplay will take much more time to correct, because the game lack development resources and there are only two devs. If they spend time on combat balance constantly, they will not have the time to develop other parts of the game that perhaps more people may care about. It is NOT realistic to think that the solutions other games has implemented regarding fairness in combat will be, or can be, dealt with the same way in Haven.

I'm just asking for a little sympathy in this area when people are making heavy-handed suggestions, that's all.

[azrid]

might be good

If they can't balance a small deck of cards in the current system they can't balance a whole class system.
It would be a bunch of uninspired boring copy paste classes anyway.

I don't think anybody even suggested the normal cookie cutter class archetype found in classic rpgs, yet that seems to be what everybody is complaining about?

That's exactly what we will get with 2 boomer developers.

[Zentetsuken]

might be good

If they can't balance a small deck of cards in the current system they can't balance a whole class system.
It would be a bunch of uninspired boring copy paste classes anyway.

I don't think anybody even suggested the normal cookie cutter class archetype found in classic rpgs, yet that seems to be what everybody is complaining about?

That's exactly what we will get with 2 boomer developers.

I don't think this is true at all. I am the same age as these guys and it's not a difficult concept to grasp. The idea of stats, purchased abilities or slider-like mechanics affecting a character in way that imitates class but doesn't tie them in to a cookie cutter mold is probably way more prevalent in older games tbh.

One game that haven is atleast a little bit inspired by and that jorb talks about a lot is Arcanum, which is a classless but insanely customizaable character development system that gives a "class" feeling.

[Rexz]

might be good

If they can't balance a small deck of cards in the current system they can't balance a whole class system.
It would be a bunch of uninspired boring copy paste classes anyway.

I don't think anybody even suggested the normal cookie cutter class archetype found in classic rpgs, yet that seems to be what everybody is complaining about?

That's exactly what we will get with 2 boomer developers.

I don't think this is true at all. I am the same age as these guys and it's not a difficult concept to grasp. The idea of stats, purchased abilities or slider-like mechanics affecting a character in way that imitates class but doesn't tie them in to a cookie cutter mold is probably way more prevalent in older games tbh.

One game that haven is atleast a little bit inspired by and that jorb talks about a lot is Arcanum, which is a classless but insanely customizaable character development system that gives a "class" feeling.

Have you checked out the two that I talked about? Guild Wars 1 and ArcheAge, it doesn't have a slider system but it does have a much more rich class/card-based system/"trees" that is highly flexible and customizable and people rarely ever feel like they are stuck in one playstyle based on their class. I think a combination of the existing system, card based skills, limited by sliders, with the sliders limited by other stat/attributes/ability could be a good way to think about how we wanna do class/combat in the future.