Please god change natural recources

[LadyV]

Alright well if you decide not to have the resources move around you should atleast make it so they cant be Vclaimed or possibly even built near.

Why, more exactly? Part of the idea behind them is to create a place of contention. If someone claims it, that should be incentive for someone else to siege that claim down. Of course, we know that that doesn't currently happen, but I'd be more interested in trying to make that happen than to change their basic function.

As siege usually means a group of people, would it no be more wise to not allow them to be claimed as it then opens the resource to everyone and thus first come first served. If you want contention then open them up. Desperation and need usually sparks most conflicts.

Personally however, I would prefer they act much like animals did in Legacy Haven. The more civilized the area the less you got. So if people walled or built to near a special resource it spawns much less. Claim it but at the risk of low to no production.

[pppp]

Winner takes all mechanics are a shit idea for everyone except the winner... putting such into a long term MMO is IMHO not the brightest of ideas.

This.
Basically that's what creates need of world resets.

"Winner takes it all" makes system unstable, as many pointed earlier. Unstable system will go out of bounds sooner rather than later.

If you want to prevent it you have to apply negative feedback in a way similar to current bum burn or satiations. The difference is the feedback must limit and act on main variable (means: stats, quality) rather than on it's derivative (means how many feps per day or how many q points per day / cycle).

If you want a persistent world then all model variables must be limited and that means negative loopback, aka "shit mechanics".

Translated to simple language that means "persistent" and "not bound" do not get along very well. That means caps, one way or another.

Back on topic: If you are looking for some resource-related band-aid, consider long-term debuff from using icicles and salt, be it another incarnation of satiations or some other penalty like slow wound healing.

[wonder-ass]

Alright well if you decide not to have the resources move around you should atleast make it so they cant be Vclaimed or possibly even built near.

Why, more exactly? Part of the idea behind them is to create a place of contention. If someone claims it, that should be incentive for someone else to siege that claim down. Of course, we know that that doesn't currently happen, but I'd be more interested in trying to make that happen than to change their basic function.

if you want them to give incentive for people to fight over scrap the idea and make it exactly like meteor and instead of it buffing a single person make it buff the whole realm so that even the small hermits can contribute and gain benefits from it. sieging isnt fun staying hours near a catapult or ram ISNT fun.

[MagicManICT]

"Winner takes it all" makes system unstable, as many pointed earlier. Unstable system will go out of bounds sooner rather than later.

EVE has a winner take all type system. There's just such a large pie that nobody can possibly take the whole thing. There's also enough "regional activity" that trade is a real thing. Comparatively, if you make a world large enough for this in Haven, too many complaints of the world being too big to cross or trade on echoes repeatedly until the next reset. (See w8, w11... well, more oceans dividing things this world, at least at the start.)

staying hours near a catapult or ram ISNT fun.

yet people do it in other games (and not just EVE)... take out shifts of a few hours each where they just camp out there at or near their computer in case an intruder alarm goes off. It's a lack of player count, I think, that it isn't happening here. Too much requires too many with too few to make a balanced game experience where the tedium can be divided up by all.

[kill5link]

Personally as hermit, scavenger and thief (the only viable playstyle as hermit imo) as main occupation in H&H, I have no incentive to break into a local resource if its walled because i can't check the next time the resource spawns. So stealing such resource is not an option.

Theoretically I could fight over minor resources with a combat alt if siege worked. But even if it did work, I could never attempt to get my hands on any local resource that's worth a dime because they are always faction-owned except for salt because there are simply so many salt nodes that the demand even for factions is easily met.
The only means to ever get your hands on any valuables for hermits are through theft and trade. Which go hand in hand.


Imo it's not a problem the local resources are being claimed by factions per se. For normal players it's simply like these resources do not exist. You could view them as premium faction-only or early bird items.
But I think the gripe with local resources is how good or bad their effect is.
You would think the better the resource effect, the more people are willing to take risks to fight for them. But since there are so few resources with OP effect (Ice spire), everyone knows that factions own them and theres no point in trying.

Salt and Heartwood leaves are high in demand even though they are one of the most common resource and i've had a few continuous salt basins where I actually had to contest with others over them because it wasn't worth to build a village claim for either.
The most claimed resources i've seen were Pit Clay, Ice Spire and Windthrow Root.
And even though pit clays are being claimed by lots of people you still find many unclaimed ones. Even a hermit can gather a few from time to time. All because there is simply a big enough supply of them.

If there was drastically more windthrows & ice spire I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem even for smaller players to fight over these. I'm mostly a scavenger so I avoid combat at all cost. Best if people don't even know I was somewhere. But even I could imagine myself fighting over an ice spire with another player to the death. Fighting with a faction...different story.

More resources means more "powercreep" I guess? But it's not like H&H has a cap on anything so really doesn't matter all that much.

I realize this isn't a solution for "siege is broken" and "faction-based competition". Just my 5 cents for hermit gameplay.

[Granger]

EVE

EVE Online has high-sec, without that it would have died a long time ago.

[pppp]

[...]

More than that.

"Winner takes it all" makes system unstable, as many pointed earlier. Unstable system will go out of bounds sooner rather than later.

EVE has a winner take all type system. There's just such a large pie that nobody can possibly take the whole thing. There's also enough "regional activity" that trade is a real thing. Comparatively, if you make a world large enough for this in Haven, too many complaints of the world being too big to cross or trade on echoes repeatedly until the next reset. (See w8, w11... well, more oceans dividing things this world, at least at the start.)

OMG, look what you have done. You have actually pushed me to start playing EVE so I could claim non-zero experience.

No, I do not agree, in many ways. Winner takes less in EVE. Not only there is highec which tones down newbie griefing and allows almost risk-free (though maybe limited) gameplay. There is also completely different death mechanics where on death player loses some equipment - possibly expensive, including implants, but player never loses skills. Then there is insurance so a player can have covered part of empty hull cost. Starter missions, if done properly give a couple of ships to play with, so a week-old player can already afford a few deaths without impending his progress too much. There is slowed-down siege mechanics which makes siege last a day (a week ??, my sources are confused) but concentrates action in three intense episodes (at least on paper). There is asset safety mechanics so even losing a base will not lose stuff stored there, though it incurs 15% cost. Also the winner does not recover all loser's equipment and cargo, only part of it.
Given sufficient asset buffer (which one should have) a single player should be able to stand up and fight again on the same char in less than 15 minutes from a kill. That, BTW, greatly reduces need for alts. On the corporation level this might be quite different. But still, in theory it allows a killed player to take part again in the same siege wave which is good from brawling-for-fun perspective. YMMV though.

Summing it up: the winner gets less, the loser loses less, which translates to better attenuation in positive feedback which in turn puts the system closer to stability. It's not about the absolute size ot the pie, it's about the size of the chunk one can bite compared to the total pie chunks either side of the fight owns.

BTW EVE has it's own problems quite similar to H&H problems, some of them being: player retention, inflation, bots, P2W. They even have their own 'reset now' threads.

[MagicManICT]

For EVE: PvP in hi sec is akin to battlegrounds in WoW. Stakes are higher... about as meaningful (for the most part). Talk to the Goons or anyone left from BoB (band of brothers)--or any of the allinaces they were pushed out in another's conquest--and see how much they have left after they lost some massive war. Billions of ISK change hands if it isn't outright destroyed in the fighting. Sometimes the items can get moved out of systems before the fighting starts, but often they can't as there just isn't enough time. I'll grant that the most valuable items in the game are usually held in hi sec storage, namely researched blueprints.

It's quite frequently more winner take all than Haven is.

And yes, I'll correct my statement to "nullsec." (Though hi sec wars can still be just as brutal, but not as often... one side usually has to really want to commit to it to make it worth the time and effort.)

Yes, a lot of people quit EVE after these major events. Some soldier on.

[pppp]

IDK, For me if is less a setback if I just pick another gear set than if I have to train my char from scratch.
I care more for a mid-level player being able to recover quickly than for a player organization (corpo/town/kingdom) to recover. If there are enough mid-level players around, organizations will emerge.

[MagicManICT]

If there are enough mid-level players around, organizations will emerge.

I completely agree here. And that was part of my point when this conversation sort of derailed... just not enough people.