Progressive decay of Q

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Progressive decay of Q

Postby Agrik » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:24 pm

I write this as a result of thinking about the endless quality growth that:
1) creates an ever-growing gap between winners and losers, and between existing players and newcomers, in both cases pushing the latter ones out of the game until a wipe;
2) makes it highly problematic to balance unnaturally high players' stats and items with natural objects.
The idea is not much refined, but I suppose it's better to start a talk early than not to start it at all in an endless internal pondering.

The main reason I see to have a decay is that any personal number left to unilaterally grow and affect a gameplay will give an advantage to already playing people over those who don't play yet, an advantage groundless and useless for players as for real people. It's just putting ones over others. Such growing gap can work at early stages as a marketing move to motivate people to get in, like saying "get in the game earlier or lose it". It will lure some additional players while the gap is still small, but later the same gap will become a thing blocking the inflow of players.

A disclaimer.

The idea is applicable only if jorb&loftar have intention to get rid of endless world wipes needed because of ever-growing Q gap and ever-declining population. If this is not the case, restarting the quality race every N months can be the answer as well.

An important point.

"Quality" after implementation of progressive decay becomes a different indicator, and can't be directly compared to the existing Q in a way like "We've reached quality X in a World N, and now we have quality Y that is more(less), so it's cool(crap).

What I suggest.

To apply a progressive decay of quality on everything player-made with Q, and to stats. A progressive decay means the higher value you have, the faster it ticks down. As Q becomes lower, decay changes (becomes slower) according to the new value. So, instead of eternal increase, players will experience increasing resistance of, let's say, nature, until they get to a Q where their efforts suffice only to keep it that high. While they more or less stop growing Q higher at this point, the very fact of being at this Q, owning and using items of this Q (with respective power), becomes an acknowledgement of their efforts. It is essentially a difference between an odometer and a speedometer, with the former being currently implemented Q and the latter being suggested one. It can be easily seen that a mileage and a speed are not directly comparable values.

Natural entities should not be affected by decay. That is: unpicked forageables, trees, boulders, wild animals, unmined ore tiles, terrain quality nodes and so on. Wells should decay only to their natural quality. I'm not sure about domestic animals and unharvested crops, and tree qualities may need a rework, as (AFAIK) they have no natural nodes and aren't easily divided into natural and player-cultivated ones. Generally I mean no decay on natural entities that are not growing in Q either. As things are taken, picked, caught, killed, etc. to have their Q raised or to be used in Q growth, their Q starts decaying from that moment.

While progressive decay is not a cap, it still puts a vague limit to the numbers that can appear in the game. This should greatly help with keeping Q of the world resources, animal strength, and other Q-based mechanics relevant, as natural Qs can be set to exist up to the highest imaginably reachable Q... well, up to the Q which decays significantly to the moment you bring it home... or other way round, decay can be adjusted to fit possible Qs into existing mechanics. And while it is a kind of limit, it can be pushed by players. So it solves problem #2.

Also, as other players are not building up an endless "mileage" that you'll have to repeat sooner or later to have a chance against them, one won't get the pressure to grind as fast as possible _every_ moment of the game. One still may need to grind as fast as possible at some particular moment to be competitive for some time, but what's important, regardless of how long he and his rivals are sitting here already. This applies both to newbies and to the people thrown back to a subpar level by mid-game defeat, thus solving problem #1.

Now to numbers.

How much should be the decay? It should create a challenging, increasingly steep "slope" somewhere around the top of natural Qs. I've thought about quadratic and cubic progression, but they both seem to either impact casual players too much or to leave Q of many hundreds still possible for top ones. An exponential progression seems to be better at combining ease at lower Qs and a constraint at higher Qs.

As for numbers, it's up to the jorb&loftar who hopefully have statistics on what Qs players have and how fast they grow, and a vision on what Qs natural objects have or should have. Very, very roughly, only for example, I can imagine something like 10^((Q/100)-1) units per day. It equals to:
  • at Q30: -1Q roughly in 5 days
  • at Q50: -1Q roughly twice a week
  • at Q100: -1Q a day
  • at Q200: -10Q a day
anything more is unlikely to happen for a long time, because the formula rises to a whopping -100Q in a day for anything having Q300. Still it isn't a hard cap and the game won't explicitly forbid to have such an item for some time.

And the decay at Q10 and lower, I suppose, should be set to zero. Otherwise it will become, according to the formula, once a 8 days at Q10. It's still a bit too much a nuisance at that stage.

Now I come to think of it, it's probably better to count time between decay ticks, so the top items won't keep their Q a full day regardless of how unimaginably high the Q is. The time can be calculated as 1/ticks per day, for example. Being precise at this doesn't matter much. Unfortunately it matters that one tick at Q200, plus one tick at Q199, plus one tick at Q198, and so on, doesn't sum to 10Q in a day because later ticks are counted against less than 200Q. It's more noticeable at Q300, as it will lose only 53Q tick by tick over the 24h instead of 100Q planned. As I played with numbers a bit, it seems that "100" in the example formula (a Q level that gets decay of -1 per day) can be tweaked to something like 80. Then Q300 will really get 100 times a -1Q in the next 24h.

Examples of how it looks like with duration between ticks equal to 1/(10^((Q/80)-1) days:
  • Q11 in a week and 6 hours becomes Q10
  • Q12 in a week becomes Q11 (then obviously Q10, taking 2 weeks and 6 hours total)
    ...
  • Q14 in 4 weeks, in four steps, becomes Q10
    ...
  • Q20 in a month becomes Q15
    ...
  • Q37 in a week becomes Q35, Q29 in a month
    ...
  • Q56 in 48 hours becomes Q55, Q49 in 2 weeks, Q43 in a month
    ...
  • Q80 becomes Q79 next day, Q58 in a month, Q45 in two.
    ...
  • Q104 turns into Q103 in 12 hours and 1 minute, Q102 next day, Q92 after a week, Q83 after two.
    ...
  • Q190 will barely last an hour before becoming Q189, Q172 in 24 hours, Q82 in a month.
    ...
  • Q250, if it happens somehow, will lose quality in 10-minutes ticks. Yet Q195 in 24h.
If decay ticks on everything are going to create too much load on server, then it can implemented as a formula of Qcurrent = f(Qcrafted,Tcrafted), where Qcrafted is Q that the item had at the moment of being crafted, and Tcrafted is a timestamp of that moment. Then the formula is used (called) only at the use of an item when its Q is needed. Current quality for the purpose of being displayed may be left to be calculated in the game client.

Additions.

- The formula for items used in active manner can have a counter for usage-inflicted wear as well, like Q = f(Qcrafted,Tcrafted,Wcounter).
- I suppose, the decay of quality can even help with siege mechanics, if walls are made to have quality that affects soak (durability?) and can be increased by repairing it with materials of higher Q. Then the siege supposedly becomes the game of pumping and sustaining Qs of walls vs Qs of siege machines (decaying too).
- The main downside I see is that people who like to engage in a race for the sake of being nominated as a winner at the end of a session... are likely be utterly disappointed. An absence of sessions, and thus impossibility of being recorded as unbeatable winners, may become the absence of goals and fun for them. Perhaps it can be partially solved with creating a kind of sessions on the base of seasons or in-game years.
- Another possble downside I thought of, this may somewhat favor attackers over defenders, as attackers would need to burst their Q only for the moment of an attack, while defenders would need to keep defences constantly. OTOH it would be not much effective to loot high Q from others if you can't sustain that level yourself.

I'm aware of A Plea for Decay (Character) topic, just thought that non-linear decay on everything may be a different approach. I won't object to being moved or merged though.

Feel free to correct my English if you really wish.
Agrik
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Progressive decay of Q

Postby Rexz » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:50 pm

This idea could potentially work out except that now anyone with higher stat and play the game more would still be able to overpower people unless the devs put a cap on stat.

If quality matters less, it would put way more emphasis on having higher stat. Bringing us back to the same problem.
User avatar
Rexz
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:46 am

Re: Progressive decay of Q

Postby Agrik » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:29 am

Rexz wrote:except that now anyone with higher stat and play the game more would still be able to overpower people
What "now" are you talking about? Higher stats and Qs will still mean more power. I only try to get the sheer time spent out of equation.

Rexz wrote:If quality matters less, it would put way more emphasis on having higher stat.
Stats are supposed to be subject to the same decay.
Agrik
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Progressive decay of Q

Postby Rexz » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:29 am

I would like then, to hear your input on stat decay.

No one likes having to work for something and having that work be reversed. I like the idea of an effective curve, but I'm not so sure on decay on a logrithmic scale based on quality/stat.

I think at this point, an effective curve is probably the best way to keep things on a level playing field, which is what Jorb has deliberated on in the last Dev stream.
User avatar
Rexz
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:46 am

Re: Progressive decay of Q

Postby Agrik » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:07 am

Rexz wrote:I would like then, to hear your input on stat decay.
Probably, exactly the same tempo, as chars' stats are effectively the same scale as Qs. Or did I get your question wrong?

Rexz wrote:No one likes having to work for something and having that work be reversed.
First, it's a game. Everything is virtual, everything is relative. It's hard to deal with game design while believing that game items have real value (so you as a real person wish to retain them). Game developers could shower everybody with all the possible items for their "work", yet I doubt it would make a good game.

What I try to say is that value of items depends on the rules of the game world. So when you get decaying axe instead of non-decaying, it's not necessarily of lesser value, the rules are different too. A decaying Q100 axe in the decaying world may be even more valuable than non-decaying "the same" axe in the world of endlessly growing Q. So the work is not exactly "reversed" if you mean "reverse" as comparison with getting non-decay item.

Second, if you mean "reverse" as a loss of item's value by itself, the work is being "reversed" now as well. Partially by world wipes, and partially by devaluation because of better items crafted. In this sense it's not an additional "reverse", but existing one being rearranged. The reason is the same: it's a game, it's virtual, items have no inherent value, thus their value depends on how hard to get them. As they pile up in the game, they're devalued by this very fact.

I'm not sure I worded this good enough, point me if something is unclear. It's kinda difficult matters to talk about even in one's native language.

Rexz wrote:I think at this point, an effective curve is probably the best way to keep things on a level playing field, which is what Jorb has deliberated on in the last Dev stream.
What do you mean by "effective curve"?
Agrik
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Progressive decay of Q

Postby Rexz » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:07 am

Agrik wrote:
Rexz wrote:I would like then, to hear your input on stat decay.
Probably, exactly the same tempo, as chars' stats are effectively the same scale as Qs. Or did I get your question wrong?


I am not sure you are aware, but those people playing more would still retain higher character stat, even if their items' quality decay. To fix this, similarly to the decay on item quality as you suggested, they would have to add in stat decay, otherwise people who are actively playing more would retain a higher stat. At this point, stat would be the key factor to how powerful you are, unless they don't decay too like item quality. So I'm asking you, what would be a good implementation for that, you think, to even out the playing field? That was what led me to say what I said in the next part of the quote.

By the way, additionally, If they play more, their average item would still be higher quality regardless, and be maintained at higher quality, especially with a big group that is well coordinated. This renders your idea just another chore and tedium to maintain quality and stat, and is applied to all players. This is not a fun game concept, in my opinion (also what led me to say what I said in the next part of quote).


Agrik wrote:
Rexz wrote:No one likes having to work for something and having that work be reversed.
First, it's a game. Everything is virtual, everything is relative. It's hard to deal with game design while believing that game items have real value (so you as a real person wish to retain them). Game developers could shower everybody with all the possible items for their "work", yet I doubt it would make a good game.

What I try to say is that value of items depends on the rules of the game world. So when you get decaying axe instead of non-decaying, it's not necessarily of lesser value, the rules are different too. A decaying Q100 axe in the decaying world may be even more valuable than non-decaying "the same" axe in the world of endlessly growing Q. So the work is not exactly "reversed" if you mean "reverse" as comparison with getting non-decay item.

Second, if you mean "reverse" as a loss of item's value by itself, the work is being "reversed" now as well. Partially by world wipes, and partially by devaluation because of better items crafted. In this sense it's not an additional "reverse", but existing one being rearranged. The reason is the same: it's a game, it's virtual, items have no inherent value, thus their value depends on how hard to get them. As they pile up in the game, they're devalued by this very fact.

I'm not sure I worded this good enough, point me if something is unclear. It's kinda difficult matters to talk about even in one's native language.


By reversed, as in item quality you just increased, now going back to a lower value after decay. This is not fun for people, unless there are ways to preserve its value that is not too tedious and realistic in the theme of a "survival game". Food spoilage is one way you can implement "decay" to fit in with the theme, you can slow down decay by storing food in various ways. Tools, weapons, armors breaking with use is another way to implement decay to fit in with this theme, and you can repair it or store it for when you need to use it. Universal decay on the other hand, might not be a very fun implementation of decay for the average player.

It is in human psychology that cause us joy and excitement when we get something of higher value in a game, especially in an RPG game. When we see our numbers going down with time, it is inherently NOT a fun thing to see and experience, no matter how you implement it.

As for your comment on world reset. While that is true, what matters in the context of the game world, happens when the game world is still active. If it wipes, then it wipes, but if it's still up, and people are still playing, then it is extremely relevant that the rule of the game remain fun and engaging for those who are still playing.

Agrik wrote:
Rexz wrote:I think at this point, an effective curve is probably the best way to keep things on a level playing field, which is what Jorb has deliberated on in the last Dev stream.
What do you mean by "effective curve"?


An "effective curve" is the solution a lot of games implement instead of a decay mechanic. An effective curve basically mean at the higher number you go, the less overall effective each point after will give it

example:
    10q sword does 10 damage,
    30q does 30 dmg
    60q does 50 dmg
    100q does 70dmg
    200q does 100 dmg
    400q does 125 dmg
    800q does 150 dmg

As you can see, someone with 400q sword can still be on even footing with someone with a sword twice their quality. They might have a chance at winning if they have better skill to outplay someone who does around 17% more damage than they do. And a player with 800q gear might still have trouble facing two players with 400q gear if they are not careful

Usually power/effective curve is based on a logarithmic scale if the developers want to place somewhat of a "hard softcap" on how much people can progress. Of course this is always subjected to experimentation for the best implementation in different game systems.
User avatar
Rexz
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:46 am

Re: Progressive decay of Q

Postby Granger » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:51 pm

Rexz wrote:I am not sure you are aware, but those people playing more would still retain higher character stat, even if their items' quality decay. To fix this, similarly to the decay on item quality as you suggested, they would have to add in stat decay, otherwise people who are actively playing more would retain a higher stat.


He is aware, from the OP:
Agrik wrote:What I suggest.

To apply a progressive decay of quality on everything player-made with Q, and to stats.


The suggestion is similar to the mechanic I suggested with Plea for Decay (Character) for basically the same reasoning.

Rexz burned a strawman by implying that the OP requested equality of outcome (which isn't the case) and his argument against the suggestion is wouldn't be fun (which falls short since endlessly growing numbers from not having the decay on everything causes way more 'not fun' in the bottom line, just for the part of the audience which isn't at the top) with a demand for need a way around it (which would preserve the broken mechanic that the OP is aiming to fix). Then Rexz came up with the 'effective curve', blissfully ignoring that this isn't able to solve the unfun (again for everyone but the top) stemming from the cancerous endless growth of numbers in a competitive multiplayer game.

So basically same playbook happening here as happened when I suggested it. Likely the devs will continue to listen to the ones who (as they benefit from it) want to keep the broken status quoso, so I'm confident that we'll continue to have fun with this topic on a regular basis.
⁎ Mon Mar 22, 2010 ✝ Thu Jan 23, 2020
User avatar
Granger
 
Posts: 9263
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:00 pm

Re: Progressive decay of Q

Postby Rexz » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:46 pm

I can argue that progressive decay can still hurt newer players that are up against people dedicated enough to nolife their way toward having better gear and stat than them. That wouldn't be fun either... because the competitive people are working harder to stay competitive now, and the casuals would still get their ass beat... how is that fun? And again, I'm not advocating for a mechanic that encorages endless stat grind, because that isn't fun either and that's why most competitive players in this game take a break toward late world, because all they can do now is work on the same stat/quality grind over and over. Remember, there are always loopholes around achieving a window of time to attain an advantage over another player who cannot afford the time to maintain quality on their gear and stat at a competitive level.

In term of the psychological effect that stat/quality decaying and/or staying stagnant have on players, I still stand by it; most people who advocated against this idea played on that very notion.

I would like to hear more from you why an effective curve isn't a good way to balance and even out the playing field between midgame and endgame players. I clearly outlined my reasonings in the earlier post.

A power curve would, effectively, put a hard cap on quality effectiveness accross any of the mechanic we deeped too OP that aren't within reach of newer players. Those who want to work 3x harder to grind out stat/quality every day aren't going to achieve 3x the power against those who can only play for a fraction of the week, but they can still attain small advantages, that wouldn't normally be considered "game breaking" or "too OP".
User avatar
Rexz
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:46 am

Re: Progressive decay of Q

Postby DPblH » Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:00 pm

Just want to remind that top quality isn't comes from nowhere. Well organised groups of people put a lot of effort into their industry. And everytime noobs comes into H&H they wants everything here and now. They even didn't touched about 10% of stuff in game, but they creates every minute threads about catching up, equality etc. Can one of them explain me why they need top gear? Why do you need q1000 anvil? What will you do with that stuff? What will you do with your "top" stats?
There is nothing to fix here, just go and play. There is no problem get decent character at this stage of world.
Give a man a game engine and he delivers a game. Teach a man how to make a game engine and he never delivers anything.
User avatar
DPblH
 
Posts: 427
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:57 pm

Re: Progressive decay of Q

Postby Granger » Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:57 am

DPblH wrote:Can one of them explain me why they need top gear? Why do you need q1000 anvil? What will you do with that stuff? What will you do with your "top" stats?

The issue isn't that new players whine about not having q1000 gear (etc.). The issue is that new players see the numbers in the game, compare them to how they see their characters progress and as the result (IMHO completely within reason) discard the game because of the cancerous core mechanics.
Maybe it helps when I explain to you that of the normal people I saw seeing a 'q1000' anvil (or the effects of one) about 99% came to the conclusion of continuing a competitive game where others have access to overpowered stuff like that being completely futile so they gave the game the finger and left.

I highly doubt that someone can come up with an explanation that is able to frame that chain of events as being an even remotely good thing for the game.
⁎ Mon Mar 22, 2010 ✝ Thu Jan 23, 2020
User avatar
Granger
 
Posts: 9263
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:00 pm

Next

Return to Critique & Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests