mini pvp events

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

mini pvp events

Postby Vraatjuh » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:11 am

Problem
Currently PvP is barely to non-existent in Haven. There is no incentive to PvP;
1. Since all good natural resources are walled off;
2. The siege system is pretty worthless in its current state;
3. The risk of losing your (main) character is too big for anyone who does not have a whole infrastructure to quickly rebuild a character, making PvP for smaller parties very uninteresting;
4. The only event that was fought over for a short period of time (meteorite) has become useless by now, and from the start has always only been accessable to the big villages.

Idea
Make all natural resources act as mini PvP events. Keep the timer as it is now, but as soon as it reaches zero make the natural resources be surrounded by a PvP field. In this field perma-death is disabled and if you die you can only spawn at your HF. During this mini event that takes 15 to 30 minutes, the person who is 'holding' the resource at the end of the event 'wins'. This person/village owns the resource for a set period of time in which only he/they are able to interact with the resource. The end of the event can occur at either a set time-limit or a random time between 15 and 30 minutes to make sure you have to continuously fight over the resource instead of pop up in the last 5 minutes.

After the event ends, people have up to 5 minutes to leave the area without the risk of being killed. After these 5 minutes the pvp zone dissapears and people can attack/kill each other in a normal way around the resource.

- Natural resources can not be claimed and/or can not be walled off/build around or natural resources can be walled off, but anything build is bashable by hand during the pvp event. Giving the current holders an extra line of defence.
- Natural resource that are not claimed during a mini-event are declared neutral and can be interacted with by anyone during the set period of time.

What does it solve?
1. Contention over resources every single time again, since they are not able to permanently wall them off.
2. Anyone can join, since there is no risk in losing your character. Allowing hermits and smaller villages to also join in these events, either as allies for bigger parties or to fend for themselves.
3. It will be harder for the big villages to hold all good resources at ones and therefore will slightly diminish the advantage they currently hold by permanently having all good resources. Since multiple events occur simultaneously, they can not show up with full force to all of the events.
4. More interaction between players and factions as it will become profitable to create alliences to hold/take resources.

Problems
1. The fact that it is a non perma-death area will not be welcomed by everyone.
2. I'm sure you'll come up with many more.

Note: this is coming from someone who mostly plays as a hermit/in small villages. I do like to PvP, but currently there is just no reason for me to join in any. There is nothing to win, and much to lose. I feel a big part of the population has the same problem and therefore never experiences the PvP aspect of this game. I feel like this would be a way to involve a bigger part of the population into PvP.
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Re: mini pvp events

Postby Ants » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:41 am

People didn't stop fighting over meteorites because they became useless. When people stopped showing up to meteorite fights, there were factions who didn't have level 9 mineholes yet. Even now they're being used to make more mineholes and craft gilds. I assume the fights stopped either because people stopped caring or because they felt they had no chance to win against the top faction.

I think a more elegant solution to making PVP interesting would be to even out the playing field by making stats less important than skill in fights.
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And by the way, most resources aren't palisaded anymore. People stopped caring about competition months ago. I've even heard people say they had trouble selling valuable stuff like ice.
Last edited by Ants on Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: mini pvp events

Postby Vraatjuh » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:12 pm

Ants wrote:People didn't stop fighting over meteorites because they became useless. When people stopped showing up to meteorite fights, there were factions who didn't have level 9 mineholes yet. I assume the fights stopped either because people stopped caring or because they felt they had no chance to win against the top faction.

I think a more elegant solution to making PVP interesting would be to even out the playing field by making stats less important than skill in fights.
Image


Might be that you are right on the first thing. But the main point of this would be to involve more people into PvP, so not just the big factions.
Leveling the playing field would not change much there, as most people would still be scared to lose their characters. (Not that leveling the playing field should not be looked into as well.)

Such events as described in the OP gives everyone a low-entry level to get involved in PvP without the massive risks you have now.
Thus, giving everyone a chance to actually learn and experience proper combat.

This is not persé an idea to fix the current PvP situation, but more an idea to involve more people in this aspect of the game.
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Re: mini pvp events

Postby MagicManICT » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:31 pm

Ants wrote:I think a more elegant solution to making PVP interesting would be to even out the playing field by making stats less important than skill in fights.

I think that's what the most recent change was supposed to do, but....
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Re: mini pvp events

Postby Ants » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:37 pm

Vraatjuh wrote:
Ants wrote:People didn't stop fighting over meteorites because they became useless. When people stopped showing up to meteorite fights, there were factions who didn't have level 9 mineholes yet. I assume the fights stopped either because people stopped caring or because they felt they had no chance to win against the top faction.

I think a more elegant solution to making PVP interesting would be to even out the playing field by making stats less important than skill in fights.
Image


Might be that you are right on the first thing. But the main point of this would be to involve more people into PvP, so not just the big factions.
Leveling the playing field would not change much there, as most people would still be scared to lose their characters. (Not that leveling the playing field should not be looked into as well.)

Such events as described in the OP gives everyone a low-entry level to get involved in PvP without the massive risks you have now.
Thus, giving everyone a chance to actually learn and experience proper combat.

This is not persé an idea to fix the current PvP situation, but more an idea to involve more people in this aspect of the game.


Ah, yeah, I see what you mean. Even if stats made less of a difference, small time players would still feel left out.

I'm no expert on PVP so take this with a grain of salt, but I think there's a lot of ways your suggestion could be abused. The first one that comes to mind is the fact that there would be nothing stopping someone from building palisades right outside the reach of the pvp field and killing sprucecaps while they try to handbash their way through.
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Re: mini pvp events

Postby Lyrroth » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:48 am

laughs in complains that people never die and titans continue to grow
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Re: mini pvp events

Postby Vraatjuh » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:51 pm

Ants wrote:
Vraatjuh wrote:
Ants wrote:

Ah, yeah, I see what you mean. Even if stats made less of a difference, small time players would still feel left out.

I'm no expert on PVP so take this with a grain of salt, but I think there's a lot of ways your suggestion could be abused. The first one that comes to mind is the fact that there would be nothing stopping someone from building palisades right outside the reach of the pvp field and killing sprucecaps while they try to handbash their way through.


I'm sure people are trying to abuse anything they can abuse already. Not a reason to not try out new things I think.
Regarding the problem you bring up; this would mean you'd have to get out of the safety zone yourself and be vulnerable to others. People would just use alts for luring people out or breaking walls.
I think building walls would never be profitable for anyone if they are handbashable.

Lyrroth wrote:laughs in complains that people never die and titans continue to grow


Not entirely relevant for the fact that a big part of the population does not engage in PvP because of 100% perma-death zone in Haven. The stat balance is a problem on its own.
The fact that the playing field is very uneven does not help of course, because this currently ensures death for casuals.
A PvP zone would negate this negative effect. The fact that you can try to take on some high statted people with friends, without the negative effect of certain death, could already ensure some fun by itself.

Again, this is not a fix for the current stat or combat problem. But a possible solution to get more people engaged in PvP, even with current problems.
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Re: mini pvp events

Postby MightySheep » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:11 pm

In an open world pvp sandbox game there will always be giga nerds at the top of the food chain, that doesnt mean there shouldnt be pvp events or that people shouldnt be rewarded for their efforts of being at the top, otherwise why bother?

I think pvp events are fun for everyone even the casuals and pvers because an active moot creates a sense of the game being alive and community being alive with politics and drama and all that jazz.

So I'm 100% behind any mechanism that will create pvp. Especially when you're putting all that curious, food, gear, credos, questing time etc into fighter chars, that shouldnt just be all for nothing as you then slowly fall behind all the dedicated PvErs. There needs to be reasons to go down that pvp route otherwise whats the point.
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Re: mini pvp events

Postby DDDsDD999 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:43 pm

The problem with pvp over resources is that winner takes all. It results in the winners getting stronger, becoming more likely to win, repeat until the winners are too strong for any competition. It'd be nice if the reward dynamic was more like the winner gets to not do one of their chores for the week, but that'd basically require a massive overhaul of all the stat systems.
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Re: mini pvp events

Postby Vraatjuh » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:42 pm

DDDsDD999 wrote:The problem with pvp over resources is that winner takes all. It results in the winners getting stronger, becoming more likely to win, repeat until the winners are too strong for any competition. It'd be nice if the reward dynamic was more like the winner gets to not do one of their chores for the week, but that'd basically require a massive overhaul of all the stat systems.


Isn't the problem in the resource being too OP then, instead of pvp'ing over resources being a bad idea per se?
Take away salt and icicles and people would still fight over natural resources, but the benefits would be way more proportional. Making it also more likely to have different winners over an extended period of time.

Especially since there are multiple of one kind, the big factions won't hold all of them and hermits/small villages can still fight for them with their own neighbors.
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