New Proposed Changes | Siege

[Mario_Demorez]

http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=67175

This thread is to make discussion about the specific change to the siege mechanics easily and more compact. Please follow the above URL to read about the proposed changes to the system. Below is a link to a public poll about this topic.

https://forms.gle/11E2izDezCnwjUop9

You must sign in through google to post a response, however no emails are saved or reported.

Please discuss in this thread about what the concerns are about the proposed siege system changes only.

results to poll : https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSf3Gz1mfr85gpRF-IGWmhu2rNYRAIirVSSPHJgO88c2gXIg9g/viewanalytics

[Tamalak]

I have a question that I didn't see answered: There is a 24 hour period between when 'power up' is selected and the 8 hour weakness window when it actually happens. Will people who inspect a claim see if it's in the 24 hour period? Or just the current power level?

Second question: Are 'siege chess' mechanics going away entirely?

[Mario_Demorez]

I'd like to know what jorb or loftar are planning to do with archery towers, catapults, and handbasing rams mechanics etc. with these changes. Pretty much without having archery towers constantly being built the entire time frame around the entire base if someone builds a ram your walls are coming down.

[MagicManICT]

I have a question that I didn't see answered: There is a 24 hour period between when 'power up' is selected and the 8 hour weakness window when it actually happens. Will people who inspect a claim see if it's in the 24 hour period? Or just the current power level?

Second question: Are 'siege chess' mechanics going away entirely?

It hasn't been asked or stated by the devs that I'm aware during the stream on the 23rd.

As for the current siege mechanics: As I understand it, no, they aren't changing. The changes are to claim shielding and ram timers only. I'll ask jorb directly on the matter for clarification just to be sure.

[SaltyCrate]

I have a question that I didn't see answered: There is a 24 hour period between when 'power up' is selected and the 8 hour weakness window when it actually happens. Will people who inspect a claim see if it's in the 24 hour period? Or just the current power level?

Yes, they will be able to see that it is in this 24 hour preparation period. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/556790413?t=0h9m30s

Second question: Are 'siege chess' mechanics going away entirely?

Presumably, they are kept as is for now. I Imagine that the numbers for them might be tweaked some in the future.

[Tamalak]

I have a question that I didn't see answered: There is a 24 hour period between when 'power up' is selected and the 8 hour weakness window when it actually happens. Will people who inspect a claim see if it's in the 24 hour period? Or just the current power level?

Yes, they will be able to see that it is in this 24 hour preparation period. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/556790413?t=0h9m30s

Nice find, thanks. This is a pretty dramatic buff to raiding attackers - I look forward to actually making a combat alt this world!

[MagicManICT]

Nice find, thanks. This is a pretty dramatic buff to raiding attackers - I look forward to actually making a combat alt this world!

Details as has been announced are in discussion, and this may not actually make it in. There's more than a few requests for it not to even be present, and other requests to at least lock it behind skills or limited resources.

[ffsfiftyseven]

I think any "bad thing" happening to you in this game can be either crisis or disaster.
Disasters make your average Joe leave the game. They are usually bad design and should imply considerable investment from other party if man-made.
Crises make your average Joe participate in the game harder. His gradually more boring grindfest life is spiced up by the threat and now it's up to him to overcome the crisis. This is good design and can come in degrees of severity.

Siege mechanic should imply the crisis, not the disaster on the receiving end.
First major issue is, as mentioned, 24-hour window of weakness on leveling up. Raiders can get lucky on their first inspection and you are screwed without any chance to retaliate.
Second issue comes hand in hand with first one. While you maintain your level 5 claim raiders still can do that.
There'r actually pretty easy fix - why have weakness window at the time of peace? Let claims level up gradually as time passes, and then first inspection acts as a trigger to decay cycles. If no inspections are concluded on the claim for X days (weeks?) it goes back to peace mode, never decaying.

Another good point made in the world 12 thread is resource cost for inspection action. I also think such action should absolutely be criminal without permission on target claim, leaving a scent and granting severe logout prevention timer.

Combining these easy fixes we get quite solid siege system. You have more than enough time to react and you can try your luck and squeeze a ninja charge.
On the other hand attackers can pressure you without full commitment to the siege itself and there'r useful balance lever (inspection resource cost) to play around with.

[kitsune121x]

my opinion when it comes to this it should be designed to punish people or not actively playing it should reward people for playing the game more
I think it should go up more you play
if you get a certain amount of learning points per day the level will go up automatically without any penalty

and when it comes to the Villages the more active the village is the more higher its level can get

this current level system the way it is is crap

all this does is make you weaker for one more week it takes like a week to build a palisade at the beginning of the world now I have to spend another week upgrading my claim as fast as possible

I have to make leather somehow and also upgrade the claim and also keep my leather hidden till I have my walls up I think the ingredients for a palisade need to be changed

if they're going to make it easier to destroy a palisade they should make it easier for you to get the materials to make one

they should also make it so you can repair a palisade at any time again cuz it's going to be easier to damage it

[Fierce_Deity]

I think siege needs more structure and limitations upon it that make base wiping undesirable or impossible. I like the idea of power levels for claims, but having a level 0 window is gross. Make power level something to be maintained that gives a village/claim bonuses at various stages or something. This is a bit long, and may warrant its on thread...Heres my idea on it:

1. A Challenge Has Been Issued
A challenge should be issued by the raiding group. The challenge serves to give the defenders a heads up(24 hours or based on claim power levels), and makes the player who issued the challenger a raid leader. The raid leader may add folks to his raiding party, up to a certain limit that could vary based on claim size and power level. Someone on the defending claim can be set as the defense leader or some such, which functions similarly to a raid leader. All villagers are inherently on the 'defending party', but the defense leader can enlist the aid of a limited amount of outside help and add them to the defending parties group. Not sure how much outside help should be allowed, something worth discussing I suppose. Part of the goal of this idea is to make the raiding party and defending party close in numbers. The challenge could be a structure with text on it...yea that sounds fun.

2. Raid Window & Lock Down Period
There will be a 'raid window' of 4 hours(seriously don't get hung up on numbers), during which siege equipment can be placed by the raid party. The raid party will be the only folks who can build or use siege equipment on the target claim during this time.
The defenders will have the option to shift the raid window by some amount, +-8 hrs or so. This is to try and alleviate defenders work or sleeping schedules being targeted, but that may be a hopeless goal.
The challenge time and raid window together create the "Lock Down Period". A time during which some limitations are placed on the claim. Metals, curios, food, and possibly other items cannot be removed from the target claim during the lock down period. No restrictions are placed on what can be brought into a base during this time. Hearthfires cannot be moved off the claim, and new villagers cannot be added during this period. Developed hearthfires of non-villagers cannot be build on the claim during the lock down period. I don't care if new characters can be made or not. Hearthfires are lootable during a raid window.
I have not decided if those not part of the raiding part/defending party should be able to participate in combat on the target claim during the raid window. I'm leaning towards not, but this is a good matter to discuss.

3. Breaching
Just to reiterate, during the raid window only the raiding party will be able to perform actual acts of siege on the walls of the target claim. They are also the only ones who can breach and steal from the target claim during the raid window. Defenders can use a breach freely if one is made.
So somehow someway the raiders are smacking the walls to damage them, and without resistance it takes an hour for a palisade, and 2 hours for a brick wall to create a "breach". 2 breaches can be created during a raid window. Members of the raiding party can enter through a breach.
Raiders who breach will find that locks are surprisingly easy to pick, hearthfires can be looted, and the damage they take for certain things is altered. Its a raid, and the goal is to steal riches and slay those who dare to defend, not wipe the base off the map. Tresspass/Rummage deals no damage, theft deals normal damage, vandalism deals variable damage based on structures health and quality, if relevant. (side idea: picking locks that use the same key take less time for a raid windows duration)
Those in the raiding party can cross a breaches threshold any amount of times, but it should have some health or stamina cost involved with doing so. With a small damagey wall section to prevent trying to set containers on a breaches edge and grab them from the other side. Gates kind of become a sore subject at this point in the idea, as I'm not sure how to handle raiders opening a way outside to bypass the breach limitations. Gates locks need to be pickable in a reasonable amount of time to enable healthly looting, but at the same time I want raiders exiting through the entrance they made.
Some other thoughts: Raiders can't ride horses after breaching, nor can horses be rode over a breach. Boats can be used to move goods out, as can chest.

4. Wrapping up/ Final Thoughts
Breached wall sections restore after the raid window, any raiders still within the base are evicted perhaps.
A cooldown before another challenge can be issued based on claim level. 2 days for level 5 perhaps, lower otherwise.
Challenges/the structure to make challenges should have some decent cost to discourage challenging yourself for the grace period, but part of my hope is that the limitations on being able to move goods will discourage that. Likely there will need to be something else in place to stop using challenging as a way to shield oneself.
This idea could use a lot more fleshing out to patch the glaring flaws, but I think the core of it is solid.