Kingdom Territory Idea

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: Kingdom Territory Idea

Postby MrBunzy » Sat May 30, 2020 1:21 am

MightySheep wrote:Why should the strongest kingdom not control the most territory? Why is that selfish? How does it require "no effort or strategy" to have the best fighters and best gear?

The strongest kingdom should indeed control the most territory. If the fighters in kingdom of ashes took a tenth of the time they spend grinding stats and put it into expanding their kingdom, I am quite confident that ashes would easily be the largest realm. For a sandbox game like haven, grinding high stats on a fighter character shouldn't be an endgame, but rather it should be a way to achieve endgame goals within the sandbox. I can't blame anyone in ashes for wanting to avoid the tedium of realm expansion mechanics, the mechanics are bad and unfun. But complaining about having a smaller realm after putting so little effort into realm expansion comes across as entitled. If you want to be rewarded for having high stats, stop suggesting rewards for yourself in c&i and instead go out into the game world and find ways to leverage those high stats to your advantage.
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Re: Kingdom Territory Idea

Postby MightySheep » Sat May 30, 2020 4:47 am

You know I dont even play this game right? I quit like 4 meteors ago so why would it be personally motivated? It's completely untrue that if KOA devoted time to realm expansion that it would be even close to balders bra. KOA might have best industry, most players, best fighters, etc but literally none of that makes even a slight difference to kingdom size.

You guys are only posting in defence of the current system because you KNOW its just a giant meme and youre having fun with that meme but if you could stop obsessing about the current world politics and actually think about whats good for the game then the old albion system is just a no brainer, it makes 100x more sense.

There are ways to stop a kingdom being too powerful or to help lesser kingdoms, you can have buffs/debuffs when the territory odds are too one sided or a kingdom 'home territory' where you get to bring extra people etc. Thats not the real issue here. You guys just want to continue the meme system because you dont want to have to actually play the game and get stats up or develop any industry outside of your botted cloth farm.

I am suggesting a solution that deals with the problem that a kingdom can have no fighters, no industry, few players and yet still own 80% of the map. Of course you guys dont think its a problem because you ARE the problem. Right now, kingdoms effectively mean nothing. At least with my idea kingdom size would actually mean something and it would encourage people to actually play the game as its supposed to be played and not the ridiculous way balders bra play it where you dont bother grinding but just run around all over the map with alts.
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Re: Kingdom Territory Idea

Postby jordancoles » Sat May 30, 2020 5:23 am

MightySheep wrote:You know I dont even play this game right? I quit like 4 meteors ago

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Re: Kingdom Territory Idea

Postby rye130 » Sat May 30, 2020 5:26 am

Stop bullying mighty sheep, all of you play the game wrong and should just be more like him and quit.
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Re: Kingdom Territory Idea

Postby MightySheep » Sat May 30, 2020 5:32 am

o no u got me i logged in for meteor oof i guess im an active player now

i actually probably would still be playing if kingdom battles were a thing, because there would be an actual incentive to play so I guess ur right im selfish for wanting this game to not suck
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Re: Kingdom Territory Idea

Postby boshaw » Sat May 30, 2020 5:38 am

MightySheep wrote:o no u got me i logged in for meteor oof i guess im an active player now

i actually probably would still be playing if kingdom battles were a thing, because there would be an actual incentive to play so I guess ur right im selfish for wanting this game to not suck

Have you tried a MOBA or battle royale? They are typically great for people who like forced closed battles and nothing else.
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Re: Kingdom Territory Idea

Postby MightySheep » Sat May 30, 2020 6:08 am

boshaw wrote:
MightySheep wrote:o no u got me i logged in for meteor oof i guess im an active player now

i actually probably would still be playing if kingdom battles were a thing, because there would be an actual incentive to play so I guess ur right im selfish for wanting this game to not suck

Have you tried a MOBA or battle royale? They are typically great for people who like forced closed battles and nothing else.

That's literally all I play :o today I've played a bit of Warzone, Fortnite and LoL.

Let me ask you, what do you think kingdom size should reflect? Size of cloth farm / alt count or the most advanced kingdom in terms of players, industry, fighting power? That's really all it comes down to.

I don't have anything against Balders Bra, I know they arent the worst kingdom because they are bad players but because you have to make a choice between actually playing the game properly or playing the kingdom territory wars game. It's no exaggeration to say that you have to choose one or the other if you want to do it well. I also don't think its an exaggeration to say that there is literally 1 person on the entire server outside of balders bra who gives a crap about the current kingdom territory system. He lives in casuals and he builds cairns a lot and bashes others sometimes. I'm havent seen Pride really caring about it or anyone else. Snail said she decided to go all out on it to prove a point that the current system is retarded, and they succeeded. They made it glaringly obvious that the current system is a joke. However I dont think scrapping the whole thing like Snail wants would be a good next step.

Having observed KOA and AD doing this 8v8 which basically a match to determine the top kingdom I had to wonder why a fight like this shouldnt just determine who controls that territory. Here you have these 2 really tryhard kingdoms going to war to determine alpha status and yet its fought under the realm of this pygmy thing that wouldnt even be able to cross that land in 1 piece. If they don't "control" that territory in any sense of the word then whats the point of a system that doesnt reflect reality?
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Re: Kingdom Territory Idea

Postby boshaw » Sat May 30, 2020 6:22 am

MightySheep wrote:Let me ask you, what do you think kingdom size should reflect? Size of cloth farm / alt count or the most advanced kingdom in terms of players, industry, fighting power? That's really all it comes down to.

Time and effort put in, which I think if KoA was sending more than a few guys, who likely get burnt out, to expand and defend you would be bigger. The cost of cairns and seamarks is kind of a joke imo, but when you have to actually deal with real fighters it's painful to expand if you can't fend them off. Not to mention they can break all progress you do if they actively search for new cairns within the 2hr window. It basically becomes a game of who gives up first, and even then you can sweep back in later and challenge and break any progress made unless you're lacking auth or they diplo you into a timezone you don't wan to be up for.

If jorb didn't allow fresh alts/vandal alts to expand your group should have no problem expanding and defending, but I guess that's an issue with Jorb and him having trouble defining what's not "fresh". It doesn't need to become a closed arena fight for supergrid sized areas.
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Re: Kingdom Territory Idea

Postby SnuggleSnail » Sat May 30, 2020 6:34 am

Didn't nobody outside of your giant group turn up to the last meteorite fight?
I feel like a thing that the majority of the community hasn't realized, that I've been saying for a year+, is that forcing people to fight, especially when there's a clear victory condition reduces the quantity and quality of PVP.

It's the same progression of events every time:
1) Everybody realizes they won't be able to compete for meteors if they don't join one of the two potentially relevant groups
2) Those groups fight
3) One of those groups win
4) More people in the winning side want to go to the fight / less people in the losing side want to go to the fight
5) Each fight becomes progressively less balanced > one side quits the game
6) The losing side stops PVPing outside of a few tryhards
7) The dominant group starts complaining about a lack of PVP, and also starts quitting (altho usually they can gather more people, because super low stated bois are more willing to come if their side usually wins)
8) Also no group outside of the two that everybody initially joined can have top industry, because for some retarded reason a giant quality boost is directly locked behind being the strongest group
9) Compounding their advantage again, the group with the quality advantage gets a giant market share compared to other groups, while putting in less effort (something I imagine most people undervalue)

Realms are insanely exploitable. I would argue a monopoly on realms is more exploitable than a monopoly on meteorites. If you add ANOTHER reason for the entire world to join an alliance, and remove everybody else's ability to interact with systems of power, compounding their own advantage further, how does that create PVP?

The reality is if what you suggested were implemented one side would win 5 times in a row, then everybody else would stop trying, be demoralized, and quit engaging in the spontaneous PVP that they otherwise would've engaged in. Just like meteorites.

Additionally, what you're suggesting would require major, and intrusive updates. Updates that would actually take a fuckload of time. Updates that would, by definition, only be able to be experienced by, what, 10-20 players? 30 if there's substitutes? ALSO, if you think cloth botting is a giant advantage for us, and the reason we're so large, wait until you realize food can be automated. Is there a single relevant person without a whale bot right now? In 3 months the whale bot will be a cheese/pie bot.

Realms are like siege. The devs have never, and will never participate in them. The majority of the playerbase have never and will never participate in them. They're insanely hard to balance. It's basically impossible for there to be unbiased/good feedback on how they should work, and it would be unreasonable to devote significant devtime to something so few people will interact with.

Unironically, I think this game would be better if realms were removed, and different content were worked on. I really doubt our monarchist overlords will accept that, though, so the best compromise to go for is probably to make them as insignificant as possible, just like siege.
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Re: Kingdom Territory Idea

Postby MightySheep » Sat May 30, 2020 6:44 am

boshaw wrote:
MightySheep wrote:Let me ask you, what do you think kingdom size should reflect? Size of cloth farm / alt count or the most advanced kingdom in terms of players, industry, fighting power? That's really all it comes down to.

Time and effort put in, which I think if KoA was sending more than a few guys, who likely get burnt out, to expand and defend you would be bigger. The cost of cairns and seamarks is kind of a joke imo, but when you have to actually deal with real fighters it's painful to expand if you can't fend them off. Not to mention they can break all progress you do if they actively search for new cairns within the 2hr window. It basically becomes a game of who gives up first, and even then you can sweep back in later and challenge and break any progress made unless you're lacking auth or they diplo you into a timezone you don't wan to be up for.

If jorb didn't allow fresh alts/vandal alts to expand your group should have no problem expanding and defending, but I guess that's an issue with Jorb and him having trouble defining what's not "fresh". It doesn't need to become a closed arena fight for supergrid sized areas.

ok but we've already established no one cares nearly enough about the current system to do that though. Like sure theoretically someone could sink to BB level and create a giant village dedicated to botting the cloth, spend hours every day ferrying alts all over the map, create scripts to delay challenges, create outposts for vandals alts and cairn alts. Get caught up bashing cairns, only to have them back it back at 2am then you bash their cairn again. Lose sleep every day because they have infinite authority to keep spamming challenges at awkward times. Etc etc etc.... Or they could- you know- just play Haven? Idk I think most people just opted to play the actual game.

As for the argument against meteor fights that is a totally separate issue and I dont think it even relates to this idea because the issue with meteor fights is the player numbers imbalance. Which is why people are turning to these arranged "forced closed battles" (as boshaw put it). I already suggested 1 way this idea could avoid being a stomp and that is to have some sort of underdog advantage buffs. Or a debuff if you control a crazy amount of territory. Weak teams could even hire people to fight for them like they used to do in Albion. As for this thing being "major" I dont think its really that big of a deal as youre making it out to be and pretty much any fix to this current kingdom system will need to be major because its totally flawed by design. It's not really "intrusive" either, it could be something to think about for next world and your group is the only ones who would even care if it was implemented this world because youd lose all your territory. It's a shame you had to devote all your time to this meme cairn minigame because hedgehugs actually have some decent fighters that would actually do well in small scale pvp.
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