Crop quality limits critique.

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: Crop quality limits critique.

Postby pawnchito » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:13 am

Kyline wrote:
Clemence wrote:the problem is that for a long term world you need long term goals


This to me is the heart of the problem.

One of the things I enjoy the most is seeing the quality of things go up.

I know you all have your views, however I see that I've got 200q turnips and that means my trees and animals will be capped around that (chickens less) and it really makes me see the 'end' of the game for me. I can already see that we are capping out in metals. The server is too new for us to be capping out now. What are we going to do in 3 or 6 or 12 months time when you have to fight for every point of upgrade in anything.


this so much. low caps hurt the marathon player.
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Re: Crop quality limits critique.

Postby Zentetsuken » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:48 am

if you have already played aggressively enough to be hitting endgame caps by now I think it's safe to presume that it wouldn't be too tricky for you to start utilizing the new crop circle mechanic in order to keep pushing your numbers.
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Re: Crop quality limits critique.

Postby SnuggleSnail » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:49 pm

Zentetsuken wrote:if you have already played aggressively enough to be hitting endgame caps by now I think it's safe to presume that it wouldn't be too tricky for you to start utilizing the new crop circle mechanic in order to keep pushing your numbers.


In the short term, sure, but by the end of world 11 my turnips were hitting ~1500? I think? Somewhere in that region. That's 120 crop circles. 720 heatwood leafs. For one season. How often in your hafen career have you seen 3 full stockpiles of heartwood leafs in one place at a time?

It's really not significant after one month, or two, but if this world lasts 2 years do you think your village is going to be deleting 720, or 1440 heartwood leafs every season? Assuming everybody is willing to put in that effort, how many villages can all of the heartwood trees in the game even support in a long world? Like, 2?

It barely matters at all when the autists have flax 50Q over you 'cause they're building 5 crop circles a month, but this is the kind of thing where it's completely reasonable over a year or two for somebody to have 1,000Q flax/1,500/2kQ turnips better than you. Once that gets fed through to an anvil, and food industry, that makes makes it pretty hard for you to do much PVP related. Kinda reminds me of an old system that got removed because it advantaged autists too much, and even the autists didn't like because it required too much autism (((anvil spiraling)))
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Re: Crop quality limits critique.

Postby vatas » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:43 pm

Would some sort of "Civilization level" -system make any sense? You raise it [[[somehow, preferably related to settling and developing area]]] and it raises the crop cap. Every single tile in the game world would have the same base crop cap limit if you have zero Civilization?

Balancing questions:
1. How exactly would you raise the civilization level?
2. Would Civilization level have maximum limit, and if it had, how high should it be?
3. What would be the crop cap for area with 0 civilization?

Why I think this idea is worth consideration:
1. If done right, it gives meaningful way to develop or "build tall" your base.
2. It could make losing a siege more meaningful (redundant as almost no active base is being sieged currently, to my knowledge. (Unless it's some sprucecap hermit against bored, developed player.))
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Re: Crop quality limits critique.

Postby Zentetsuken » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:57 pm

SnuggleSnail wrote:
Zentetsuken wrote:if you have already played aggressively enough to be hitting endgame caps by now I think it's safe to presume that it wouldn't be too tricky for you to start utilizing the new crop circle mechanic in order to keep pushing your numbers.


In the short term, sure, but by the end of world 11 my turnips were hitting ~1500? I think? Somewhere in that region. That's 120 crop circles. 720 heatwood leafs. For one season. How often in your hafen career have you seen 3 full stockpiles of heartwood leafs in one place at a time?

It's really not significant after one month, or two, but if this world lasts 2 years do you think your village is going to be deleting 720, or 1440 heartwood leafs every season? Assuming everybody is willing to put in that effort, how many villages can all of the heartwood trees in the game even support in a long world? Like, 2?

It barely matters at all when the autists have flax 50Q over you 'cause they're building 5 crop circles a month, but this is the kind of thing where it's completely reasonable over a year or two for somebody to have 1,000Q flax/1,500/2kQ turnips better than you. Once that gets fed through to an anvil, and food industry, that makes makes it pretty hard for you to do much PVP related. Kinda reminds me of an old system that got removed because it advantaged autists too much, and even the autists didn't like because it required too much autism (((anvil spiraling)))


okay this is a good point.

probably not a great system in the long term.

while I don't think it's actually necessary to have ANYTHING get to q1500 even after 2 years, I understand the desire to be able to limitlessly push q for this long, and the exponential costs for the circles seems to slope in to impossible territory after a short time.

So if they remove the quality cap they should rather run with the idea of having to manipulate nodes with structures. Make pushing quality in crops generally harder, make the push slow as hell by default. With this, It might be fun if crops not only had nodes for growth speed but also nodes that affected their quality increase/decrease luck ratio. To add to this, having farm structures that mimic the idea of irrigation and fertilization could serve to boost the odds of quality increase and growth speed instead.

Another batch of buildable tools that would need to be replaced and rebuilt in iterations with quality spirals, with AOE effect like a beehive. Your crops will scale infinitely without them and very slowly raise over time as the win/loss ratio would lean in favour of win, but with the added fun of being able to combat the loss ratio with the structures.

An example being like a fertilization structure that you place in the middle of a field. Equipped with a few chickens or rabbits it will keep itself full enough to aid in boosting the crop quality gain ratio and speed, depending on the quality of the fertilizer it is filled with and the structure itself. Surely other forms of fertilizers could be utilized as well.
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Re: Crop quality limits critique.

Postby SnuggleSnail » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:52 pm

I think making things less simple usually ends up worsening the hafen experience. IMO, the ideal would be W7 farming, except with a catch up mechanic.

a) WWWs spawn at a quality relative to the topQ seeds
b) The +/- quality modifier could be bigger the lower the cropQ relative to topQ crops
c) Nearly topQ, or exactly topQ seeds could spawn in ant dungeons
d) Crop circled could be used to active a), or b)

Something like that.
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Re: Crop quality limits critique.

Postby vatas » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:04 pm

Lets start with hypothetical scenario 001: every time WWW dries, there's 1% chance that instead the seed being quality equal to the WWW, it becomes equal to the top quality crop that currently exists in the game world.

This would encourage botting WWW and maybe even construction of drying frames would be automated, but unlike advanced farmer botting or extreme metal spiraling, a complete newbie can be expected to at least partially involve themselves in this system.

If it feels too OP, you could make the 1% proc 90% of world's top crop instead but when I suggested in response to SnuggleSnail originally posting this idea, IIRC Snail made convincing argument on why it should be 100%.
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Re: Crop quality limits critique.

Postby Zentetsuken » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:12 pm

vatas wrote:Lets start with hypothetical scenario 001: every time WWW dries, there's 1% chance that instead the seed being quality equal to the WWW, it becomes equal to the top quality crop that currently exists in the game world.

This would encourage botting WWW and maybe even construction of drying frames would be automated, but unlike advanced farmer botting or extreme metal spiraling, a complete newbie can be expected to at least partially involve themselves in this system.

If it feels too OP, you could make the 1% proc 90% of world's top crop instead but when I suggested in response to SnuggleSnail originally posting this idea, IIRC Snail made convincing argument on why it should be 100%.


I really don't know where people get this shit from.

The amount of important, OP and wildly, incredibly valuable for top tier players and grinders (who are almost exclusively pvpers) a new implemention would have to be in order to immediately become something that is botted is wildly, wildly underestimated.
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Re: Crop quality limits critique.

Postby MagicManICT » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:46 pm

Zentetsuken wrote:The amount of important, OP and wildly, incredibly valuable for top tier players and grinders (who are almost exclusively pvpers) a new implemention would have to be in order to immediately become something that is botted is wildly, wildly underestimated.

There are a few folks in each of the major factions that will script everything simply because they can, at least as an exercise in automating routines. Even the most trivial, simplistic tasks can get automated. I really wish I could take the post as a joke or as serious, but I saw a listing for the bots ran during w7, and there was a script for nearly everything. how much was real, and how much was just trying to bait the other teams? Not a clue, but I know more than a few programmers, and it is very much in some of their personalities.
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Re: Crop quality limits critique.

Postby SnuggleSnail » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:16 am

I mean, I don't have a script to build drying frames per se, but my willage uses a script to build trellises in an array for our pepper farm. Only a couple coordinates really need to be changed for it to build anything in simple patterns. https://gfycat.com/FavoriteAggravatingBaiji

I don't think "can/will this be automated" is a good question. A better question is "how much time would botting this save, and how powerful is it to bot". A script that builds drying racks will save you MAYBE 3/4 hours per world, and isn't powerful outside of time saved. If WWWs have a 1% chance of being a useful quality, and a 1/4 (depending on node) of being the crop type you care about, it'll probably save you less than a day's work per world. It would be powerful slightly beyond time saved because you'd run it more often than a normal person would upgrade their seeds, meaning avg higherQ crops in your willage, but that's probably not very significant. Plus, it's way harder to make a foraging script than it is to make a farming script, so probably anybody who could automate collecting WWWs would just gather them once, and then automate farming instead.

On the other hand, the time saved from automating crop circles/quality farming in a significant way right now would save an astronomical amount of time, and be powerful outside of time saved in that after a decent length of time every aspect of your industry is by default higher quality by a non marginal amount than everybody else's, you own all trade, your character progresses way faster, and your B12s/armor is way better.
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