Game balance

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Game balance

Postby scouter1 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:38 pm

Salt was invented to prevent massive stats grinding. But people still grind massive stats. In game with permadeath the way for someone with 4k str to kill a newbie player is so easy. Like after one month there can be a guy with insane stats killing everyone around.

People also quit because they are not getting addicted to the game because after some time there is nothing to do besides fighting. People don't care about stats after they get enough. It is also demotivating that a few people are 999x stronger than you.

To keep people still playing after they develop their villages there shoudl be daily activities which they can do but they can't rush them earlier.

We are getting world reset every 1-1.5 year. Let's say normal players have right now ~4k stats in total. World is 5 months old.
4k stats / 150 days = 25 total stats a day.

Let's make a limit. A hearthling can't get more than 25 stats a real life day. This will encourage not tryharding people to still play the game, because they will feel that they are equal to other players. And tbh there are 1/20 tryharders and 19/20 normal players which leave the game because someone oneshot them or they are useles
There should be also stat cap, but not 300. I think 2000 base is a very good number.
For characters which have died there shouldn't be daily stat limit until they get stats back

Learning points cap.
8k/h.

Let's take into consideration Tibia. Everyone after 100 lvl and ~80 mlvl are almost equal. You can still play, but you aren't able to oneshot someone. And people are still playing
This game is NOT like WoW. Here if u die, u lose everything. Think about that. Even in WoW you can't do raids all the time. There is a cap! 1 per week as i remember.

----------------------- SUMMARY -----------------------

In points:
* Daily total stats cap - 25
* General single stat cap - 2000
* Learning points cap - 8 000 / h
* If someone die - disable daily stat limit until he gets his stats back.

Benefits:
* People will still play after a month or two
* People who have families/responsibilities will still play because they will still be useful
* World WON'T be burned out after 2 months.
* People will focus on other aspects of the game than only eating
* Hermits will be able to join big fights (meteor, cairn etc, because they will be useful)
* Smaller villages will be useful also
* There will be more diplomatic in game because almost everyone will matter
* Meeting other people won't give you a heart attack - "What if he has 2k (stats after one month of game) omg omg, he will one cleave me". People will know "possible stats".
* People will play smarter, they will have to choose - str or agi or con or int or ... not like now, eat, eat, eat all omg, eat all.
* There will be more benefits, making game more accessible for STANDARD players is better than giving everything for tryharders.
* People won't make 9999 animals 99999 sized fields just for griding. People will be able to play this game, focus on every aspect of the game, because every aspect will take less time. Not like now, you cook all day, you hunt all day, it's boring after a while. It's like a chore...
* People will focus more on quality of food / curio than quantity
* No more titans in game

Now it's kinda bad that only a few groups of players can enjoy the game. Big kingdoms with bots. Let's make game accessible for everyone.

#Heartling #Hermit #Small villages #Not tryharders lives matters
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Re: Game balance

Postby goosebreeder » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:27 pm

Another loser whines about the hard game is...
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Re: Game balance

Postby MagicManICT » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:36 pm

scouter1 wrote:Salt was invented to prevent massive stats grinding.

That's a huge assumption there, and likely wrong. If anything, salt is just the opposite--a means to consume more food at the higher bonuses.

scouter1 wrote:the way for someone with 4k str to kill a newbie player is so easy.

You sure about this? For a player to die these days via PvP, they have to almost completely ignore their injuries so they die via the concussion received on a KO. (This doesn't count people that intentionally take PvP skills and make themselves vulnerable to PvP death.) Also, someone with 500 STR is just as relative to this discussion as 5000, and 500 is very easy to get to--less than a month. For that matter someone with 200 STR, which is attained in the first week or two, is just as relevant when discussing random ganking of newbs.

scouter1 wrote:We are getting world reset every 1-1.5 year. Let's say normal players have right now ~4k stats in total. World is 5 months old.
4k stats / 150 days = 25 total stats a day.

Just an FYI: the average runtime for a world after 11 worlds is still about 10-11 months. The top stats in w10 (which ran for about 2 years) were somewhere in the 25k-30k range. On the other hand, world 7, which also ran about two years, didn't break 10k that I'm aware. Some things have been done to decrease this already, such as satiations.

scouter1 wrote:it's kinda bad that only a few groups of players can enjoy the game.

Why do you think only a few large groups of players can enjoy the game? Is this a mass PvP game where the only thing to do is go out and fight each other? Or is it a crafting game where there are a lot of things to do, even if you have to deal with PvP here and there to exert your worldview?

scouter1 wrote:tryhard

:roll: I will explain my disdain for this phrase in other places (via PM maybe) if you care to read it.

I think your tags here sum up what is wrong with these types of suggestions, though. Succinctly, in a point that relates to the topic--you choose how you play the game. If you choose to play in ways that aren't "optimal," then you can only blame yourself for not being able to run with the big dogs. Accept your personal decisions for what they are, or change the way you play. Don't try to force others to change the way they play just because you can't accept it. I will agree that changes do need to be made to balance things, but those should be based on world mechanics and speed tuning, not arbitrary player progression capping.
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Opinions expressed in this statement are the authors alone and in no way reflect on the game development values of the actual developers.
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Re: Game balance

Postby scouter1 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:14 pm

easy https://streamable.com/gnau1t

the point is, that it's so unbalanced. You can't let people grind such stats and do whatever they want. 99% normal players would agree with me, that there should be anti-grind/tryhard mechanic.

And you really don't know how easy it is to kill a hermit these days
Last edited by scouter1 on Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Game balance

Postby goosebreeder » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:32 pm

Another 'not a noob' whines about the hard game is...
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Re: Game balance

Postby blank » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:03 pm

i saw this..

"Let's make a limit. A hearthling can't get more than 25 stats a real life day."

and i quit reading. smh.
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Re: Game balance

Postby MagicManICT » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:18 pm

scouter1 wrote:the point is, that it's so unbalanced. You can't let people grind such stats and do whatever they want. 99% normal players would agree with me, that there should be ant

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you on the point, only the method.

scouter1 wrote:And you really don't know how easy it is to kill a hermit these days

I know quite well the means of doing it. (or maybe I don't? Maybe someone has come up with a more efficient way and not shared it.) I know the means of doing it 3 years ago, I know the means of doing it 7 years ago. Each of these periods have been quite different. And it's not easy. Doable, yes, and there are a few other there doing it, but it wouldn't matter what their stats are because the means of doing it have little to do with runaway stat growth in a 5 month old world. Try addressing the problem more directly. If you don't want to "share the secret" publicly, maybe address it to jorb or loftar via PM.
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Re: Game balance

Postby Lurux » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:29 pm

I honestly like all the benefits. But I doubt about what you want to change is the correct thing.
I like what you are suggesting : make the hermits worth to be able to participate in bigger events for example. Make there existence usefull in the game.
I think this would be great result, but does it have to by capping the stat progression? Or can there be other mechanics in the game, coupled to realms for example in which numbers of inhabitants would count rather than stats.
Or should the significance of stats go down compared to what they are at the moment? for example let characters have an age and let this age determine how strong a character is in relation to their stats.
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Re: Game balance

Postby SnuggleSnail » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:16 pm

MagicManICT wrote:
scouter1 wrote:the way for someone with 4k str to kill a newbie player is so easy.

You sure about this? For a player to die these days via PvP, they have to almost completely ignore their injuries so they die via the concussion received on a KO. (This doesn't count people that intentionally take PvP skills and make themselves vulnerable to PvP death.) Also, someone with 500 STR is just as relative to this discussion as 5000, and 500 is very easy to get to--less than a month. For that matter someone with 200 STR, which is attained in the first week or two, is just as relevant when discussing random ganking of newbs.


From day 2 of this world to maybe day 14 I was killing 10-20 people a day on average. I got ~100 perception the first day with 10 str, so my str/con were shit, and I didn't raise agi. Also my HP was usually like 20% from stealing. Nowadays I'm mostly using an absolutely garbage character with 200-400 attributes, and the worst armor I can make/have stolen. I run around by myself being as annoying as I can to the largest group in the game when they have 100 of my scents, and my perc is so low I can't even see theirs to counter track. I haven't died yet.

If your argument is "think of the nabs!1!!", then stats rly don't matter. I think most ppl I could kill under normal circumstances with would die still even if they had x2 or x3 my stats. Outside of getting trapped the people who die do so because they're don't know the game or made a retarded decision, not because they didn't have 4k str.

If your argument is "combat is not inclusive enough because you need stats!!1!", then I'd point out if you have good industry rn you can make a 500 stat char in 1 day. 1k in a week if you're tryharding but not being a total autist about it. A competent PVPer with 1k attributes in big group fights will be x10 as useful as 95%+ of the people who play this game if they had a char with 4k stats probably. Don't get me wrong, fighting people with way higher stats is gay and all, but it's not rly as bad as you're making it seem.

The world would be a fuckload more equal if having meteorite didn't give such a retardedly giant advantage. Would prolly start there if more people being able to complete if your goal.
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Re: Game balance

Postby scouter1 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:49 am

This thread: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=68917
This comment: https://ibb.co/37TKVmq
This part of the comment: I mean at world start there is only a dozen or so players with top stats and they just kill everyone until they find each other.

There should be daily development cap. My idea is more or less good/bad. But allowing players to become "ultra grinders titans" in a open pvp game is a bad idea. I am sure everyone know it.

Daily development cap will overall slow down progression and buring out of the world. You won't be able to kill a cachalot in the first week..
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