Revisiting the idea of permanence

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Revisiting the idea of permanence

Postby overtyped » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:04 am

I got no illusions about convincing anyone, and even if it was implemented it could prove to be a mistake, but all I know is the current paradigm is not attractive to me despite the fact that I've not yet had my fill of haven.
My biggest issue with haven has always been the fact that nothing lasts, and is in my opinion why the game, despite being so amazingly good can't retain most players.

It's been requested before, but what about giving it another thought? Maybe some sort of implementation that allows the characters to be retained in some shape or form through world wipes.
I get that losing your character in pvp is a thing, but maybe that shouldn't be the reason why this can't be considered.

Let me give you a bad example. If Runescape had a wipe once a year, how many players would keep playing, and how many would come back to it? This is a bad example because there is no permadeath in runescape, and no permanent structures but haven also has a similarly crazy stat grind.

My closing argument is this. In this giant world, does it matter if there are unkillable titan players roaming around at the start of a new world? Even if they pick off the stray noob, they would have a hard time with their killing spree, not to mention the scents they leave might attract titans of the opposing factions, and this would limit players with godly stats from being rash.
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Re: Revisiting the idea of permanence

Postby terechgracz » Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:10 am

overtyped wrote:My closing argument is this. In this giant world, does it matter if there are unkillable titan players roaming around at the start of a new world? Even if they pick off the stray noob, they would have a hard time with their killing spree, not to mention the scents they leave might attract titans of the opposing factions, and this would limit players with godly stats from being rash.


People will butthurt if someone killed them early. We would need PVP(and grief) protection zones, of course theese zones would need to be moderated so no one complains about someone palisading your whole base etc(http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=44710).
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Re: Revisiting the idea of permanence

Postby overtyped » Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:37 pm

terechgracz wrote:
overtyped wrote:My closing argument is this. In this giant world, does it matter if there are unkillable titan players roaming around at the start of a new world? Even if they pick off the stray noob, they would have a hard time with their killing spree, not to mention the scents they leave might attract titans of the opposing factions, and this would limit players with godly stats from being rash.


People will butthurt if someone killed them early. We would need PVP(and grief) protection zones, of course theese zones would need to be moderated so no one complains about someone palisading your whole base etc(http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=44710).


Could be like a 3 day no pvp grace period at the start of a world idk, i just really want to keep my shitty characters through worlds, because it's hard to give your character up once you are attached to it and start over. I was never highly statted, so titans and big factions lose 100x more than me in terms of stats, but if you are attached to your character it doesn't really matter, having it wiped for a new world is still going to make you consider quitting.

There's also the thought at the back of your mind that this world/character isn't going to last, so why bother. I hate having those thoughts but I can't help it, but that's just me. Perhaps thats the reason haven is low pop, perhaps it's not, who really knows without trying.

It's also not like a new world is going to put everyone on the same playing field. The big factions in 1 week would make a character that new players cant beat for months.
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Re: Revisiting the idea of permanence

Postby Lalaxx » Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:50 am

So top factions will dominate meteorite fights every world? You just deny fact that hnh will get advertising someday? New groups and factions will be created and you will not give them a chance to make some action in PvP with this idea of yours. -1 bad idea.
If you tired of grinding every world just stop grinding :shock:
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Re: Revisiting the idea of permanence

Postby overtyped » Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:41 am

Lalaxx wrote:So top factions will dominate meteorite fights every world? You just deny fact that hnh will get advertising someday? New groups and factions will be created and you will not give them a chance to make some action in PvP with this idea of yours. -1 bad idea.
If you tired of grinding every world just stop grinding :shock:

Its not about grinding, it's about losing a character you are attached to due to wipes.
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Re: Revisiting the idea of permanence

Postby Lalaxx » Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:57 am

overtyped wrote:Its not about grinding, it's about losing a character you are attached to due to wipes.

Attached. Sure. Stop attaching then.
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Re: Revisiting the idea of permanence

Postby Apocoreo » Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:04 am

As it is the strong only get stronger. This world is kind of Haven and Snail. Wouldn't mind it happening again as long as we have a chance for a different outcome in the form of a new world. Would be open to permanence if we were to see the mighty fall more often. More often meaning those that are most dedicated to the game will still likely end up on top, but often fall and must climb their way back up.
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Re: Revisiting the idea of permanence

Postby Nightdawg » Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:21 pm

I get a feeling people that want permanence really want to just larp and don't think about all the major changes that affect stats every world. W10 titans had 40k stats, W12 titans have 10 times less. They had q2000 items in w10, now they have q500(?) items cause of spiralling being removed.
A game that scales indefinitely is not fair towards new players that literally can never catch up if others have years of grind behind.

One thing that already is unfair in this game is the snowballing. Stronger villages always snowball faster than a more casual village. This effect would only be one million times stronger if people keep they 100k stats throughout the world. They would literally be able to 2 shot a level 9 troll on day 1?
It takes me roughly 2 hours to travel with a knarr from one corner of the world to the other, world's not that big IMO.
The only annoying thing I can think of are the credos. They're really cancerous to get, but then again it would still be unfair for me to start with 20 credos and a new player to start with 0.

I wouldn't even want to try playing this game if I knew people had 5 years of grind ahead of me + the snowballing from it + the years of experience to actually know every single mechanic of this game. How would I even learn pvp? I'd get PUNCHED (the weakest attack in this game) twice and I'd just die.

Afaik, runescape has a cap for stats, and you can catch up to them?
Doesn't PoE have leagues or whatever that reset and even more players start playing?
I'd understand why you wouldn't want to lose a world of warcraft character, cause you have stuff like achievements that you'd like to keep. All you have in hafen are your stats. Also whenever a new expansion comes to wow, you're still capped to whatever the level of that expansion is, and people can catch up to you in level and gear.
Apocoreo wrote:This world is kind of Haven and Snail.

No it's not. Both factions had people with higher stats than him, 2 months ago, he's just the only one still playing and bullying hermits :lol:

overtyped wrote:There's also the thought at the back of your mind that this world/character isn't going to last, so why bother. I hate having those thoughts but I can't help it, but that's just me. Perhaps thats the reason haven is low pop, perhaps it's not, who really knows without trying.

I used to think like this only about building *beautiful* things like a larpy village, levelling the ground, etc., but never about my character. I like the idea of starting equal when the world wipes, so I have a chance against others.
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Re: Revisiting the idea of permanence

Postby wonder-ass » Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:51 pm

permanent world will never work with the inherent flaw of stat/quality snowballing.
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Re: Revisiting the idea of permanence

Postby Apocoreo » Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:24 pm

Nightdawg wrote:
Apocoreo wrote:This world is kind of Haven and Snail.

No it's not. Both factions had people with higher stats than him, 2 months ago, he's just the only one still playing and bullying hermits :lol:


That's pretty much why I feel that way though. I'm legit surprised there are still people stronger, at least 2 months ago. Also slightly disappointed these titans aren't dickwaving and fighting each other. Not openly at least.
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