Time Gated Permanence

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Time Gated Permanence

Postby overtyped » Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:29 am

I want to say, that I was around in the days of the 300 stat cap, and I think we all know how flawed that was. Once you reach the 300 stat cap, there was nothing to do, but there is a better way.

This is my idea: First, characters will be capped at 500 stat. Every month the cap is increased by 50. Characters can no longer die and can only be reduced to 1 hp, but with horrific wounds that reduce all stats by 90% and health by 99.99%, it could take you one real-life month to fully heal if your stats are 1000, while even longer if your stats are higher. This means it's less punishing for the weaker players.(nonplayer wounds would be different and not as extreme)

In the event where a new world starts, you keep your character and the +50 stat cap continues where it left off. Of course, at the start of a new world, I imagine it would be quite difficult to increase it even slightly if you are already over 1000!

Pros: For normal people, even 500 stats are already very difficult in the length of an average world, and this would curb the 24/7 bots+ no life lords, while still giving those degenerates something to do.
The +50 stat cap increase per month is to keep the hardcore people invested and coming back every month, also the consumables like heart containers would suddenly have a lot of potential as a way to bypass the cap, so it's not like stats are the only thing that keeps them playing.

Moreover, people will no longer feel like catching up is impossible, especially since the longer the game goes the easier it is to catch up, so the longer a world goes, the more incentive they would have to come back.

Cons: Botters will lose efficacy, and hardcore people will have less to do. There is no fear of death, but I think having horrific wounds that reduce your stats by 90% and HHP to 1 would still be a horrifying enough prospect to give you that same adrenaline rush in PVP.

In summary, I don't think 50,000 statted titans were ever your vision, which is proven by the fact that you once tried adding a 300 stat cap, so why make it the meta?
Time gated progression is in almost all MMORPGs and for good reason, because the model is proven. Yes, there would no longer be a 24/7 grind, but was that ever healthy? Do even the botters not tire of it?
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Re: Time Gated Permanence

Postby Lunarius_Haberdash » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:55 pm

This isn't a solution, it will only ultimately penalize new players. Even those who join as part of a community and work hard to understand the mechanics of the game will never be able to advance their stats as high as the elite. All it does is further entrench a class of Titans by creating an autocratic system based on age of account.

I'd much rather see stat caps and stats/skills that must be maintained over this.
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Re: Time Gated Permanence

Postby overtyped » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:14 pm

Lunarius_Haberdash wrote:This isn't a solution, it will only ultimately penalize new players. Even those who join as part of a community and work hard to understand the mechanics of the game will never be able to advance their stats as high as the elite. All it does is further entrench a class of Titans by creating an autocratic system based on age of account.

I'd much rather see stat caps and stats/skills that must be maintained over this.

Never be able to advance their stats that high? This isn't a band-aid, if someone wants it bad enough they can catch up. Currently, they can't. Even very late, this is stats in the thousands, not the 10,000s-100,000s, catching up is doable. Even if they can't in the current world, they can catch up in the next if they keep at it. 50 stat cap a month isn't absurd.
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Re: Time Gated Permanence

Postby Sevenless » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:43 pm

I get that as a player who only tends to be around for the first 3-4 months of a world my opinion isn't worth dink. But I've always felt that the wound system is an admirable compromise between risk, immersion and playability that could replace permadeath entirely if tuned correctly. From what I've read, and my experience at the start of this world, I don't think its current form would be ready for that (namely due to lack of % penalties, which might have changed but meant very little to developed characters within a month or two).

I've certainly had idiot friends try the game and get so wounded they quit rather than reroll a character since they were literally worse than dead at the start of the world. Not going to comment on the rest though, those types of things are never issues I've had with the game and would only impact players other than myself.
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Re: Time Gated Permanence

Postby overtyped » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:17 pm

Sevenless wrote: But I've always felt that the wound system is an admirable compromise between risk, immersion and playability that could replace permadeath entirely if tuned correctly.

If I had to pick a change, that is the most likely one for Jorbtar to implement, but not the one I want the most :(

Really though, unlimited and uncontrolled stat growth works great in single player. In a mmo though, there's always going to be the feeling that you are falling behind unless you bot to keep up.
I'd be interested to know Jorbs view on this, and if he holds the same sentiment or not, and if so, is unsure on how to implement it.

If my idea is bad, I'm sure the community as a whole can think up something better, I'm surprised game developers don't use this untapped labor more.
For example, they could make and sticky a thread called " I want to do "X" and I want the community to brainstorm ideas."

Or, they could show the change they are intending to make, and then let the community dissect it first from all angles, that way they can see it from a thousand different viewpoints.
If, for example back when they added the 300 stat cap, they asked for the community to dissect it, I'm pretty sure it would have been realized fairly quickly that once the stat cap was reached, there would be little to do.

There are ways however to make that idea work, for example, make dungeons more prevalent, so people can make heart containers their new grind, of course just this isn't enough, and there would need to be more.
In the current climate, however, if the 300 stat cap were added again, it would do far better than back then, but I still don't think just heart containers is enough to justify that change currently.

My idea went a bit further, and I suggested the characters persist through worlds. This alone, of course, is by itself just as unrealistic, because in some worlds you get titans with 100,000 stats, while in others the highest they reach is 10,000. The patches to the game make worlds inconsistent, thus this single change too shallow.

My idea for a stat cap that increases per month was to mitigate this, while still giving most players the feeling of constant progression through stat growth, that way when characters are kept from world to world, they can't go out of control.
There's probably a more perfect way to do this, but I can't think of it right now.
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Re: Time Gated Permanence

Postby dafels » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:03 pm

The 300 stat cap was just too low.
Back then 600 or so stat cap would been fine I think. I think it is worth taking a look at the stat cap idea again, but the game has been fucked in so many ways balance wise that it will be much more complicated.
Also bring back permadeath as it once was, the game felt alot different when it was played and it was the game's niche and kept people with huge stats in check....
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Re: Time Gated Permanence

Postby vatas » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:52 pm

Apply a curve factor to reincarnation bonuses? if you're sprucecap below 100 stats and get burial/lamentation you get almost all the stats back. But die with 1000 stats and you'll be lucky to get 300 stats back after doing the same things?
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Re: Time Gated Permanence

Postby LaserSaysPew » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:19 am

What about stat softcaps? Let's say a 1000.
Below that point - you play just like you do now.
When you go over it - the system starts rubberbanding you back. The further you go the harder you're pulled back to 1000.

It's possible to go over the cap for some time to get advantages in the upcoming meteor fight, for example, but you'll then get back to the cap. If you keep eating, you can keep yourself at 1200 for example, which will require effort.
Casual players won't be affected cause 1000 stats is pretty hard to achieve as a hermit or a casual village.
Hardcore titans will be kept in check not going into 10000s, huge villages will have something to do preparing food for upcoming fights to give their fighters advantage, figuring out exploits on how to get the most stats in the shortest times at 1000fep req, catching up will be completely possible if you die.
It basically creates a sink for resources, food, lp and the harder you go the bigger the sink.

I remember someone suggesting something similar and the main argument was that it feels bad to lose stats over time.
But let's be honest here: It's hnh. Suffer, bitch.
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Re: Time Gated Permanence

Postby overtyped » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:57 am

dafels wrote:The 300 stat cap was just too low.
Back then 600 or so stat cap would been fine I think. I think it is worth taking a look at the stat cap idea again, but the game has been fucked in so many ways balance wise that it will be much more complicated.
Also bring back permadeath as it once was, the game felt alot different when it was played and it was the game's niche and kept people with huge stats in check....



LaserSaysPew wrote:What about stat softcaps? Let's say a 1000.
Below that point - you play just like you do now.
When you go over it - the system starts rubberbanding you back. The further you go the harder you're pulled back to 1000.

It's possible to go over the cap for some time to get advantages in the upcoming meteor fight, for example, but you'll then get back to the cap. If you keep eating, you can keep yourself at 1200 for example, which will require effort.
Casual players won't be affected cause 1000 stats is pretty hard to achieve as a hermit or a casual village.
Hardcore titans will be kept in check not going into 10000s, huge villages will have something to do preparing food for upcoming fights to give their fighters advantage, figuring out exploits on how to get the most stats in the shortest times at 1000fep req, catching up will be completely possible if you die.
It basically creates a sink for resources, food, lp and the harder you go the bigger the sink.

I remember someone suggesting something similar and the main argument was that it feels bad to lose stats over time.
But let's be honest here: It's hnh. Suffer, bitch.

Dying and stat loss is not a nice mechanic, but there are ways to achieve the same result without giving a negative experience.

Let's look at XCOM, once upon a time they had a time limit, and if you didn't complete it in that time you get punished, now they changed it, instead of punishing you when you don't reach the time limit, they instead reward you for completing it within the time limit. These are identical on paper, aren't they?

What sounds more appealing?:
1: Let's say you complete a mission on time, you are rewarded with 150 exp, while if you fail to complete the mission on time, you get the standard 100 exp.
2: Let's say you complete a mission on time, you get 150 exp, while if you fail to complete the mission on time your 150 exp is penalized by 50.

This is a lesson in human psychology, people don't like to be punished, and doing so can give them a negative experience despite the fact the mechanics have not changed one iota.

Now for haven and hearth
1: Let's say you have a character with 100 stats, and you die, and it takes you 30 days to get double the stats you once had.
2: Let's say you have a character with 100 stats, and you die, you get wounded, and lose 99% of your stats for 1 month from the wound, during this time the food is less effective on raising stats, so after one month, he only raised his stats by 75%, 25% less than if he had died, despite the same amount of effort put in.

On paper, it is more logical that you would have been far better off if you had died instead of been wounded, but I think the majority of people would prefer to keep the character.
This is an example of achieving a result even worse than death, but the player's experience would feel far less negative.
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Re: Time Gated Permanence

Postby LaserSaysPew » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:38 am

Debatable. Losing 99% of the stats will make me create a new character cause there is no point in playing this one for at least 2 weeks(assuming I'll be regaining my stats gradually as the wound heals). Maybe 3 weeks.
So for the future 2-3 weeks this system will mean a 100% stat loss on death for me since I'll be forced to play a fresh character. Does it really feel good to you?
On the other hand: I die, I immediately gain % of my stats back.
Either way it's a loss and it's supposed to be that way, I got fucking rekt and KOd/killed, I'm not expecting a cookie for this.

There is no way to make a limitation of stat growth positive. You either lose them over time or can't gain them anymore.
And between not being able to gain anything(boring) and losing stats over time if I go over the limit, I would choose the latter. And it only affects factions really, not every player.
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