Poison

[Apocoreo]

There have been a lot of informal suggestions for adding poison - often attached to alchemy - but I have yet to see much of a why.

Has this happened to you? Picture this: it's mid world, most of your players just quit, including some leadership. The strongest player is getting more and more demanding and even threatening. What ever shall you do? Why not kill them?

I've seen this happen to a handful of villages. More or less even stable villages are ruled by the strong. "The weak should feel the strong" is oft repeated on the the forums, an adage that holds true of early civilization. I would argue more advanced society was only possible through the ability of the common man to poison their leadership. Of course, rather than forcing leadership to have the people's best interests in mind, this inspired them to invent more complex means of rulership that distanced them from the people.

The game's about section states:

Having progressed far enough, players will, in time, be able to organize themselves into societies, from simple tribes and villages, progressing through republics, nation states and, ultimately, empires.

I believe poison will help us achieve just that.

This feature would not be for big groups of chummy players, more for new groups forming. Possibly improve the new player experience by giving them recourse against power systems they feel trapped in.

As for the actual mechanics, I think it would be enough to simply make a form of alchemical elixir that can be cooked into meals. Stretch goals could be to ensure all poisons are also curable through alchemy, and that damage is dealt slowly over time. This gives the player a chance to survive, with the cooperation of other players within or outside of their village.

Cooking poison into meals forces the village alchemist to conspire with the cook, as low-q food would become suspicious. Elixir q should be very important for dealing damage as well. All this is to involve as many non-combat characters as possible, in addition to the complexity of alchemy being a deterrent from poisoning people on a whim. It also makes that banning of alchemy items a very shifty thing to do, and encourages the construction of grottos and laboratories hidden outside village limits and away from the powers-that-be. In an unhappy village, paranoia and conspiracy would be abundant.

My biggest issue is that this could be abused. Poison food could be sold at markets, which is why poison should be slow-damaging. Poison could be left as traps for hungry raiders, or left in the cupboards after a player quits. Taste-tester alts would become commonplace. Poison should be harder to make than its cure. And of course, this could be used on non-combat character just as much. But you know, if you want to kill the farmer, just stab them, right?

Other threads have suggested poison before, but in my search I've found it was only in the context of new food and critters. This thread is meant to give these suggestions a purpose and bring the game's systems closer to its ultimate mission. Thoughts?

[MagicManICT]

I would argue more advanced society was only possible through the ability of the common man to poison their leadership. Of course, rather than forcing leadership to have the people's best interests in mind, this inspired them to invent more complex means of rulership that distanced them from the people.

I don't want to derail the thread, as it's a good write-up. I'll just say we could discuss this one for hours.

Better post than most I've seen on the subject, and you make some strong points. It's a significant balance issue, though, and what to do of it being used nefariously? (Assuming one can say using poison to remove a despot would be "proper" or "moral.")

ensure all poisons are also curable through alchemy,

Not all poisons are curable... at least not in any way that will save the patient without severe, debilitating side effects. Of course, it's a game and mechanics should be balanced. Nobody wants to lose a character that "survived a poisoning" to be useless, so I do agree with you, even if reluctantly.

[Apocoreo]

I don't want to derail the thread, as it's a good write-up. I'll just say we could discuss this one for hours.

Hell yeah we could. I'd say it's relevant as long as it ties back to how it will change the game's politics.

Not all poisons are curable... at least not in any way that will save the patient without severe, debilitating side effects. Of course, it's a game and mechanics should be balanced. Nobody wants to lose a character that "survived a poisoning" to be useless, so I do agree with you, even if reluctantly.

I feel you, this is a case where gameplay has to take precedent over realism, in my opinion.

[Phaen]

Would any of the poisoning events (crafting it, incorporating it into food, the murder itself) trigger scents?

A scent upon murdering could lead to the location where the poison was added to the food (NOT to the character who did it)

A scent upon adding poison to the food could lead to the poisoner themselves, which would encourage them not to do it at the shared cauldron/ovens.

So finding the poisoner would be two steps. If the poisoner lives in the village but created his concoction offsite, the trackers would need to break into the offsite location to get the scents that prove it was that villager

[Apocoreo]

-snip-

That would definitely incentivize making an alt base for it. I also means the poisoner would not be caught until after a poisoning. I was thinking maybe you can obtain a scent through alchemy. The warrior threatens the alchemist into making elixirs that allow one to check food for poison, providing a scent if it is indeed poisoned. These elixirs could be expensive enough that it is unrealistic to use them on every single food item. All this requires the loyalty of your specialists.

[vnsmirnov]

Why be cruel? Poisoning shouldn't kill. It is enough to completely reset statistics to 1

[Phaen]

That would definitely incentivize making an alt base for it. I also means the poisoner would not be caught until after a poisoning. I was thinking maybe you can obtain a scent through alchemy. The warrior threatens the alchemist into making elixirs that allow one to check food for poison, providing a scent if it is indeed poisoned. These elixirs could be expensive enough that it is unrealistic to use them on every single food item. All this requires the loyalty of your specialists.

Ooooh I like the idea of being able to catch them in the act

[MagicManICT]

Why be cruel? Poisoning shouldn't kill. It is enough to completely reset statistics to 1

That would actually be crueler than death. At least in death you get a portion of your attributes back.