Improving farming quality of life

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Improving farming quality of life

Postby razfen » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:49 pm

Hello guys, in this thread I will try to provide my feedback on the current farming system, and write up some problems that I think it has at the moment, and present a system that could potentially improve the quality of life for farmers.

The problem

At the moment, farming is a very long tedious process that has a few issues with it, that plague other systems as well in the game, but perhaps farming is the easiest to grasp for the entire haven demographic, as eventually even the casual players get to the point where they get some crops.

Players want to optimize their farming timings, as harvesting and replanting as soon as the fields are ripe results in the least amount of growing time wasted. When the crops are ripe and not harvested, they don't generate crops. Harvesting crops the first few times still gives the player the sense of satisfaction that they harvested their crops, and either replanted it all to increase the next harvest's yield, or they replant the same amount, reaping the full benefit without increasing the field size further. Here the problem is psychological. If I don't replant as quickly as possible, the field will produce less. This means that the player will have to shift their schedules around the game, instead of playing whenever they feel like. This factor can lead to burnout, or inefficient farming.

I would like to emphasize this: I personally feel that the first few replanting cycles are fun and engaging, up to a point when crops are no longer a "new thing". Once a player progresses to this level, the task of farming becomes more of a chore than a fun activity. Everyone wants big crop fields, but I don't think many people enjoy the act of working these fields once the task of handling a field takes half an hour even with the currently available tools, and quality of life systems in place.

So how do players deal with this? Some of you will jump to the immediate conclusion that players set up bots to automate this process. While this is true to a certain extent, most custom clients, and even the base client has functionality that automatically harvest and replant fields by drag-selecting (as far as I am aware at least). Crops are dropped on the ground, that have to be picked up, and thus inventory space limits the amount of replanting possible in one go before having to pick plants up again. By the way, contrary to popular belief, most established players do NOT bot their fields. The method usually used is that a farmer alt is handling the crops, but in a half-attended state, while the player is doing other activities on their main character. Villages usually have 1-4 dedicated farmer characters, and these characters just run on someone's second monitor, occasionally attended to as required.

The process becomes even more tedious when we factor the quality progression into this as well, because the crops have to be selectively replanted, thus the player has to sort the crops as well. The problem is that there are a lof of "unfun clicks".

So to summarize the issues:
  • The act of handling farms becomes increasingly tedious with the size of the plot, to the point where it becomes a "background task" to players after a time. Farming cycles run on timers, making the player have to adjust their real life schedules around the game to achieve efficient farming, or "guilt tripping" the player that they did not harvest the field for x-y hours or days, missing a crop cycle, thus falling behind.
  • Manually having to sort through the crops, setting up stockpiles etc. in order to progress in quality.

2. The solution to the tedium

2a. Make all crops work like trellis crops, having to plant them only once and then the field stays, but reverts to the first growth cycle after harvesting. This way, replanting can be taken out of the equation. The problem this presents is that now there is no way to sort the crops to optimally replant. More on this later.

2b. Introduce a new mechanic to the granary and the windmill, where these structures have an "area of influence" around them. Within this area of influence, fields are automatically harvested, and the crops are stored within.

These two adjustments would mean that small fields that are still manageable by hand could still be harvested as such, but larger fields would be automatically collected. The balance here is of course that windmills are expensive structures early on, requiring a lot of cloth that is better spent early for building village banners and snekkjas. The building costs could also be changed to include wax perhaps.

A problem might be apparent: If the player does not log in for a long time, the field would still automatically produce crops. To alleviate this, the automatized harvesting could require an active claim to function, or occasionally require the player to do something to the windmill, such as every harvest would damage them, making it require repairs, and after 50% decay, automatic harvesting would stop.

3. The solution for the quality progression

3a. Tie crop quality progression to seasons, and make it so crops are to be replanted yearly. If crop quality changes are in a bigger range, say, -4 to +20, but happening every season, that could provide an alternative.

3b. Another method is to just outright remove quality from seeds, and introduce a fertilization system, where the used fertilizer's quality will influence the next harvest's quality. We already have mulch and bat guano, we could have manure too maybe? Hearth magic spells could be introduced for this as well to bless the crops for increased quality or something.

The basic idea here is that the amount of clicks should not be linearly correlated to the size of the fields. In such a system presented, the amount of clicking would stay the same for small farms, but a more established, larger group's farmer would have to do the same amount of clicks as the player who only has a small field to work with.
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Re: Improving farming quality of life

Postby Zentetsuken » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:57 pm

Automation sounds a bit heavy of an implementation for the game and a bit out of touch with how the rest of the game is played, kind of a slippery slope


that being said, I think that something that aims to mimic botting could easily be implemented

say building a 1x1 object you put in the center of your farm called a "farm station" that allows you stretch a claim like grid over your farm and to mark stockpiles and container/graineries

and when you harvest from the claimed area all the crops get automatically stacked in stockpiles and all the seeds get automatically dumped in the containers

your character still does the actions and you still select the area to farm but all the fruits of your labour are placed in their respective pre-selected zones

I assume that some kind of automated planting could be done in a similar way where you pull from containers in the marked zone without having to fill your inventory with seeds or sort through various qualities
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Re: Improving farming quality of life

Postby Sevenless » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:06 pm

If crops produced 10x as much as they do now, you'd need less of them. Do we want even more quasi bot systems, or do we just lighten the load of "how much do I actually need".

Animals are a pain in the ass, they self limit more based on sanity than on fodder value. Cooking isn't ever really limited by farmed ingredients, it's heavily limited by non-farm ingredients (pots, hunted power foods, some forageables) and sanity for how many cooking combinations you manage. Bulk farmed ingredients that used to be important like flours just aren't super relevant anymore, and satiations limit you on non-power foods. So instead of a village wanting 2000 tiles of crops to meet the other sanity caps, x4 the outputs and make the need 500 tiles instead (numbers kinda made up, that's the size of my turnip fodder field).

The big key here is the concept of moving goalposts. The older logic behind farming was "if we let you farm more, you'll just farm the same amount of tiles and eat more". But these days we have a lot of other caps on how much farmed food you need, and I feel bringing the tilecount down to meet that is a perfectly reasonable suggestion at this point.
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Re: Improving farming quality of life

Postby razfen » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:48 pm

My logic is mostly that handling fields loses its fun value after a few harvest cycles, this is why I would be in favor of automating farming.

The problem arises once you want to farm for other people as well. At that point, you are still managing a big field. One could argue that you can just have more farmers, but these farmers will still do the same. It is repetitive, locks you down for the time while you're doing your farm, and it is not engaging gameplay.

I do agree that the satiation system alleviates this to the point where you don't need to hurry as much, but you still want to increase field quality even if you play alone, and that still means you want to replant as quickly as possible.
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Re: Improving farming quality of life

Postby Vantri » Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:29 pm

Most popular sentiment against farming improvements is:
if farming provides less tedium, players will start expanding fields until same amount of farm-related teduim is generated as before.


Farming after few cycles is still fun and engaging as it used to be, unless was viewed upon from "learning something new" perspective.
logic is mostly that handling fields loses its fun value after a few harvest cycles

This is absolutely true for explorers.

When taking achievers POV, it gives more rewards: first, establish industry; furthermore, get a "kick" every time crop quality progresses.

Defining goals to pursue in sandbox or revealing player's stance toward game instead are of most importance and require massive QoL improvements (easiest (but not most brilliant) implementation - achievement tables, as quests are implemented already).

tldr farming is NOT long tedious process, unless other goals appeal more to you.
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Re: Improving farming quality of life

Postby Sevenless » Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:52 pm

Vantri wrote:tldr farming is NOT long tedious process, unless other goals appeal more to you.


You have to take other goals into account. This isn't runescape where each skill can to a large degree be insulated as a mechanic from the rest of the game.
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Re: Improving farming quality of life

Postby iamahh » Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:09 am

gotta say farming is my current go-to haven routine, as a hermit

I could go for mining, but I'm quality stuck

could go exploring thingwalls, but takes too much time, has potential tho

could go hunting but I'm on the danger zone

I guess there's something for everyone, atm I hate planting trees and exploring the waters
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Re: Improving farming quality of life

Postby loftar » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:05 am

razfen wrote:Players want to optimize their farming timings, as harvesting and replanting as soon as the fields are ripe results in the least amount of growing time wasted. When the crops are ripe and not harvested, they don't generate crops.

Perhaps this isn't documented well enough, but that hasn't been true for a long while. When they are ripe and not harvested, they keep on accumulating "growing time", which will be subtracted from the next generation of crops. Up to three RL days of non-harvested growing time can be accumulated with no loss whatsoever (up to a RL week with some loss), so there's no need to austitically watch your fields and harvest them the second they grow up.
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Re: Improving farming quality of life

Postby Sevenless » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:11 am

loftar wrote:
razfen wrote:Players want to optimize their farming timings, as harvesting and replanting as soon as the fields are ripe results in the least amount of growing time wasted. When the crops are ripe and not harvested, they don't generate crops.

Perhaps this isn't documented well enough, but that hasn't been true for a long while. When they are ripe and not harvested, they keep on accumulating "growing time", which will be subtracted from the next generation of crops. Up to three RL days of non-harvested growing time can be accumulated with no loss whatsoever (up to a RL week with some loss), so there's no need to austitically watch your fields and harvest them the second they grow up.


True except for turnips. Seed stage turnips make an amazing fodder. Regular turnips are cancerous because of the inventory they fill.

Guess who missed harvesting yesterday?

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Overall farming mechanics have a lot of "impossible to know if you didn't read that patch note" things that the wiki struggles to keep up with. Invisible speed nodes definitely one for farms and trees.
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Re: Improving farming quality of life

Postby ErdTod » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:29 am

NGL I convinced a friend to give a try to HnH and FTUE really does gag on huge balls. You don't really realize that after so many years of playing that game, but no proper tutorial and no official documentation leaves people to just rely on wiki and pro-tips topics, where half of the time information is outdated. Thus even experienced people don't know about such mechanics as loftar described, and new players have to overcome an incredibly steep learning curve to get into the game, which might not exactly be very fun and engaging.

tl;dr: yeah
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