Revert the buff to sword armor penetration

[strpk0]

Game Development: Incorrupt Rabbit

Small Fixes
-----------------------
Increased "Bronze Sword" armor penetration from 7.5 to 12.5.
Increased "Hirdsman's Sword" armor penetration from 5 to 12.5.

Its kind of dumb that the current PvP meta is using Shield Up + a Hirdsmans Sword, then mindlessly holding down the quick barrage and occasionally sting key.
There's very little counter to something that gives you the best of all worlds

• 250% block weight from shield up vs. 100% for chin up or 75% if using bloodlust.
• No cooldown penalty vs. 125% for B12 attacks.
• Attacks like quick barrage and Sting that use melee (sword) damage vs. B12s having to rely primarily on unarmed combat attacks, and the very occasional cleave (that has a huge base cooldown * 125% from b12 penalty)
• 12.5% armor penetration currently on swords vs. 10% on B12s.

Numbers and stats aside, how swords currently work along with shield up is really dumb, and simplifying PvP in this game to "brainlessly hold down quick barrage, occasionally sting and win" is facebook-cookie clicker game levels of bad. At the very least using a B12 requires putting yourself at risk, using maneuvers that lower your defensive weight and having to plan out your attacks and decisions accordingly to exploit brief periods of time where you can catch someone with their pants down and land a big cleave, while avoiding making a bad mistake that puts you into danger.

PvP next world is going to be braindead and boring under current mechanics, and the full effects of this update haven't manifested yet because most people already built their characters around UA/B12s this world.

Alternatively if swords are made to be powerful, then shield up should accordingly receive heavy nerfs so at the very least you can fight back against a sword user without losing half your HP bar to consistent unavoidable chip damage.

[DDDsDD999]

Chip damage (swords) bad because it's just mindlessly pressing buttons. Big hits (B12) good because you have to time openings and do risky plays that leave you vulnerable for a long time.

Also the sword buff was just ridiculously too much, they were already used a bit before the buffs.

Changed my mind, sword world let's go!!

But let us respec combat skills: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=72137

[noindyfikator]

Its kind of dumb that the current PvP meta is using Shield Up + a Hirdsmans Sword, then mindlessly holding down the quick barrage and occasionally sting key.

I stopped reading after this. You have no idea how PvP works.

Swords were shits, at least now they are playable.

[Zyean]

The cooldown and mentioning of MC vs UA is kind of disingenuous considering the meta for b12 has been all UA moves which completely bypasses the 125% anyway other than cleave, which you dont really super care about the openings for, but you get high openings now anyway because of equalization.

That being said shields up was always OP, it was just fine being OP because swords did literally 0 damage before, not the case so much anymore, spear kinda fulfilled that mix of more damage for less defence but it was nerfed, maybe nerf sword back down to original values and spear damage up slightly (probably just make new steel spear so it actually has value if you lose it)

[strpk0]

Its kind of dumb that the current PvP meta is using Shield Up + a Hirdsmans Sword, then mindlessly holding down the quick barrage and occasionally sting key.

I stopped reading after this. You have no idea how PvP works.

Swords were shits, at least now they are playable.

Stellar argument

The cooldown and mentioning of MC vs UA is kind of disingenuous considering the meta for b12 has been all UA moves which completely bypasses the 125% anyway other than cleave, which you dont really super care about the openings for, but you get high openings now anyway because of equalization.

I don't really get the point here, and I don't intend either to turn this thread into "i know more pvp than u lmao", the point with the cooldown argument was that someone that has 250% defensive weight on me shouldn't also have access to the same cleave move I do, except also with -25% cooldown. It just tilts the fight against you and over the course of it you'll end up losing your HP slowly with no recourse.

Its a difference in playstyles, swords favor mindless attack spam/supporting other people while b12s favor risky play in exchange for potentially high damage and quickly being able to down someone if you do it well enough. With that being the case, it makes no sense that swords should also deal more damage than b12s, while being a much safer option with none of the risk scenarios.

[noindyfikator]

Swords before buff were like a bee trying to sting you. With equal geared opponent you were unable to go through armor, dealing 0 dmg for most of the time. They were shit. Maybe now after buffs they will deal at lest some more damage.

The meta for sure was not "Shield Up + a Hirdsmans Sword". Maybe for spruce fights. Normal PvP was only B12.

[strpk0]

Swords before buff were like a bee trying to sting you. With equal geared opponent you were unable to go through armor, dealing 0 dmg for most of the time. They were shit. Maybe now after buffs they will deal at lest some more damage.

Thats fine, swords being able to damage is not an issue, what is an issue is that Shield Up exists, and you shouldn't really get to chip someone and drain half of their HP bar during a fight, while also being safe yourself from damage.

If you don't believe how bad it currently is, go ahead and test a qb/sting deck vs a regular b12 build in valhalla with a friend or something.

The meta for sure was not "Shield Up + a Hirdsmans Sword". Maybe for spruce fights. Normal PvP was only B12.

Agreed, though swords had a niche role to play in supporting others even back then. How strong they currently are though is ridiculous and I'd argue much stronger than b12s, while also incentivizing a very boring/unskilled playstyle.

[DonVelD]

Swords before buff were like a bee trying to sting you. With equal geared opponent you were unable to go through armor, dealing 0 dmg for most of the time. They were shit. Maybe now after buffs they will deal at lest some more damage.

The meta for sure was not "Shield Up + a Hirdsmans Sword". Maybe for spruce fights. Normal PvP was only B12.

Wdym? There were alot of fighters this world using sword and shield. The thing with swords was that they dealt lower damage but it wasn't worth engaging those fighters (not 1v1 at least) because of their high defence. I saw melee fighters as more of a support that dealt openings here and there leaving people to get finished off by UA fighters. To me it seemed like a fair trade for its 250% shield up. Imo a buff to them would've been fine if it wasn't that high.

[Zyean]

Oop

[Zyean]

The cooldown and mentioning of MC vs UA is kind of disingenuous considering the meta for b12 has been all UA moves which completely bypasses the 125% anyway other than cleave, which you dont really super care about the openings for, but you get high openings now anyway because of equalization.

I don't really get the point here, and I don't intend either to turn this thread into "i know more pvp than u lmao", the point with the cooldown argument was that someone that has 250% defensive weight on me shouldn't also have access to the same cleave move I do, except also with -25% cooldown. It just tilts the fight against you and over the course of it you'll end up losing your HP slowly with no recourse.

Its a difference in playstyles, swords favor mindless attack spam/supporting other people while b12s favor risky play in exchange for potentially high damage and quickly being able to down someone if you do it well enough. With that being the case, it makes no sense that swords should also deal more damage than b12s, while being a much safer option with none of the risk scenarios.

[/quote]

The point being its kind of fluffing the argument that swords are even more overpowered than they are, the issue isnt and has never been wow i get 25% faster attacks and I can just build MC where B12 has to build UA, the crux of the argument is you get too much defense for how much chip damage you get now, where spears need to sacrifice defence or openings for that chip damage, and b12s use kitos for chip damage but it requires IP[/quote]