MAKE SIEGE REAL AGAIN

[Justforthis]

Ok so I couldn't stop thinking about this and needed to jot it down.

I kinda changed opinion but not stance. I don't think there's a correct answer. Having accesible (relatively) simple sieges vs week long ones isn't wrong vs right as much as it's catering to different aspects of the game. Like it or not both ways ruin the game for different people.

I still advocate for finding a different solution than just going back to 24h sieges permanently. So what about variable siege times? It could be every other server siege is slow and every other it's fast so it changes with new world(bad idea). Or the siege time could change with the server life so that siege times either increase or decrease from a base value to a min/max over the course of a few months (better idea). Or what about changing the siege times based on the season? (best idea) This could be larp friendly if winter has the longest siege time and summer the shortest (though maybe for balance reasons either autumn and spring should have short siege times and summer long), different seasons would be safer for base building and rebuilding which would be dynamic and fun.

Or maybe it's possible to make siegeing something to prepare while not spanning 5 days. Lets say you can make a siege challange/declaration(somehow) which will take 3 days to allow the siege, you make the challange against a claim and then you can build and use siege engines near that claim only after 3 days but use them almost instantly. The owners of the claim are warned about the challange by a buff or something. This would provide a specific time when the siege will happen, it would allow for planning from all sides but the actual siege when players try to outsmart eachother would still be confined to a reasonable time period.

Please, bust my ideas.

[SnuggleSnail]

The current mechanics are not a balancing misstep that went to far, siege was intentionally and purposefully removed. A "real" siege nowadays would not be 5 days, it would be closer to 1-2 months of continuous siege if the attackers don't lose a single time.

Discussing mechanics for the sake of balancing is a waste of time if you don't first convince Jorbtar the game should have siege. The game has gotten progressively safer every world for a long time. I don't think we're going back.

[Justforthis]

The people that bash their own cupboards instead of making catapults have not fought back. A single person's response to these situations is not really important to my point, though.

You take the moral highground and decide what constitutes fighting back. I disagree on your comparison. If the farmers on Gotland burned their crops before fighting the Danish (I doubt they did) that's not giving up, they could fight with reckless abandon knowing they will lose but giving the finger to the invaders.

Things are different in games, but you yourself draw compariosn to real life. And I agree with those comparisons. I only played Hafen for a short time but like I said I understand where you are coming from. Even if I haven't experienced what you did specifically in the game of Haven I know there was a tension in hafen that's not present as much now. A little still, it's still nerving meeting players when out and about but I agree with you that it's no where near the same.

But if you are a lone soldier against an army of invaders, I'd say blowing up the armory you're guarding with only enough ammo for your final stand isn't "Not fighting back". Fighting back can be claw and nail in a desperate attemt to at least deny the attackers the pleasure of an easy kill and all your things.

Would I bash my cupborads? Prolly not, don't the items just go to the floor anyway? Also this game isn't Wushu. My example was of doing the best I could, I did fight when they attacked me too, but with enough stat difference the outcome is set.
If you have 100+ all stats against a 10 every stat it's literally impossible for you to lose unless you stand still doing nothing. Context matters.

[SnuggleSnail]

If you had 100 stats and I had 10 stats I would shit down your throat, and it wouldn't even be hard.

I thought like you and shook during fights once upon a time. Everybody does/did. The game forcing me to progress between that then, and now running from 1:10s after killing somebody while writing out paragraphs about Ozzy's weight issues with 0 fear is what made haven great.

[Justforthis]

If you had 100 stats and I had 10 stats I would shit down your throat, and it wouldn't even be hard.

I thought like you and shook during fights once upon a time. Everybody does/did. The game forcing me to progress between that then, and now running from 1:10s after killing somebody while writing out paragraphs about Ozzy's weight issues with 0 fear is what made haven great.

I'll be the first to admit I got next to zero pvp combat experience. So I'm curious, how'd you shit down my throat? Arent openings etc related to stats? Can you also fight bears with just 10 in everything?

Or don't, I don't get the impression you're trying to talk to me. More like you're so sure of yourself you're just telling me how it is. Could it be that youre not wrong but that what you say isn't all that exists in the world?

[SnuggleSnail]

It's mostly a movement thing. If you're not very experienced and you're fighting somebody who's good, it doesn't really matter what the stat difference is. You simply won't be able to touch them when their openings are high, meanwhile you'll get cleaved/clipped/medded over&over. Killing a bear with 10 stats is also trivial, and happens day1 of every world.

I understand if you like haven for other reasons. I understand if it's not the game the devs want to make. Regardless, it seems like a colossal waste to give up something truly unique for the 100th bad stardew valley clone.

[DonVelD]

Even if you're outstatted by much, and if you see that your chances are bad you can just run away. All it takes is a few tricks to be learned and you can get away from an attacker. If someone knows that and you don't they will fuck you up no matter the stats. I'm not saying it's bad but still, the skill matters way way more than the stats and gear.

I'd say that you should trust Snail on those matters, I'm not trying to just glorify my own friends but I've seen him pull off some ridiculous shit, like getting palisaded in a village he was trying to rob and fighting 1v4 inside & winning.

It'd be safe to say that 95% of this community doesn't know shit about the PvP in this game and its ridiculously easy to win with no effort.

What sucks about the state of PvP in this game is that MOST of the players are pussies and refuse to learn, they'd rather sit in the palisade waiting to get sieged while bashing their own shit when they're in danger. That's not fighting back, that's just being a petty asshole whilst refusing to learn how to play the game.

[Justforthis]

It might seem contradictory of me to claim I enjoyed the tensenes form Hafen while also admiting I have zero real pvp experience. I've been in villages twice, both times we had some basic pvp-practice but I was only with both for short amounts of time and we never had real fights when I was with either.

I do take most of your words regarding the pvp, I'll change my perspective and assume stats aren't as important as knowing the meta tricks and tactics. At least until (if ever) I get some personal experience.

Still disagree with some parts about how people handle being attacked. That's your ideology not objective truth.

[DonVelD]

Still disagree with some parts about how people handle being attacked. That's your ideology not objective truth.

Our village kinda specialises in attacking everyone we see. More than any other village. You can trust me on that matter. It's very unlikely that people would fight back. The one situation in the video was honestly something refreshing. I was really happy that they tried to defend from the "siege" because it kinda just doesn't happen. Other than that, for me, like 5 people (and I attacked MANY, many people) fought back this world when I attacked them, I think. (if you don't count big groups like AD/Ozzys team etc.)

[SnuggleSnail]

It is objective truth.

Might be a bit of a morbid way to prove my point, but watch the Christchurch massacre video. You'll see ~20 people running away, a single man trying to fight(who knocked the shooter down, and almost won - if a single other person had helped it probably would've saved 50+lives), and ~40 uninjured people huddling up against the walls in a room with multiple exits getting executed one by one.

It's easy to read this and think you'd be that 1/100 guy that tries to fight. We'd all like to think we'd make good decisions and be brave under extreme pressure, but almost everybody just huddles in the corner praying for mercy.

Getting attacked in haven is probably not as stressful as being shot at, but oh boy does practically every single person react the same way the people in that mosque did. As cringe as it sounds learning to overcome your fear/panic is a big part of being a competent fighter in haven, which is a very cool/unique experience for a video game to give you.