MAKE SIEGE REAL AGAIN

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: MAKE SIEGE REAL AGAIN

Postby joojoo1975 » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:48 pm

SnuggleSnail wrote:It's mostly a movement thing. If you're not very experienced and you're fighting somebody who's good, it doesn't really matter what the stat difference is. You simply won't be able to touch them when their openings are high, meanwhile you'll get cleaved/clipped/medded over&over. Killing a bear with 10 stats is also trivial, and happens day1 of every world.

I understand if you like haven for other reasons. I understand if it's not the game the devs want to make. Regardless, it seems like a colossal waste to give up something truly unique for the 100th bad stardew valley clone.


as you are fond of making videos, please make a video on a new character going out into the world and killing a bear.

i play the game but haven't pvp'd since world 3,

But seeing a new character kill a bear. Is something I Rally want to see
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Re: MAKE SIEGE REAL AGAIN

Postby SnuggleSnail » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:53 pm

guy from my willager made a guide: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=72160

If you send me the login to a character with 10 stats and combat moves I'd be happy to make a video of it
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Re: MAKE SIEGE REAL AGAIN

Postby Justforthis » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:58 pm

SnuggleSnail wrote:It is objective truth.

[...]

Getting attacked in haven is probably not as stressful as being shot at


I did not express myself well it seems. I was refering as not being objective truth was that "cubboard bashing" and similar antics is always unfalibly "being a pussy" and cowardly. It Defineatly can be, but I hold that circumstance makes all the difference.

If someone comes to a village and says "come out and fight to the death or we siege!" and the people in the village bash all their shit and quit the game make new characters and rebuild elswhere, yes totally in your corner thats lame as fuck all.

But if someone is a prick and just hunts some random people over and over ganking them and ruining their every chance at playing the game. And these people do fight back and try to but never manage to get a leg up. Then when this griefing fuckface comes around for the hundreth time, bashing all your own shit which he could potentially use before giving him the finger is a whole different deal.

Just because you are pvping for fun and with some sort of honor/code doesnt mean that's how it always is. Your perspective isn't the baseline which truth is built around.


What you claim to be objective truth I agree with however, everyone acts tough but to actually be calm with something like a gun in your face is a totally different thing and it's easy to believe one could handle it but truth is almost no one can.
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Re: MAKE SIEGE REAL AGAIN

Postby SnuggleSnail » Wed Apr 12, 2023 12:07 am

fair call \o/
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Re: MAKE SIEGE REAL AGAIN

Postby Clemins » Wed Apr 12, 2023 3:18 am

Justforthis wrote:Or maybe it's possible to make siegeing something to prepare while not spanning 5 days. Lets say you can make a siege challange/declaration(somehow) which will take 3 days to allow the siege, you make the challange against a claim and then you can build and use siege engines near that claim only after 3 days but use them almost instantly. The owners of the claim are warned about the challange by a buff or something. This would provide a specific time when the siege will happen, it would allow for planning from all sides but the actual siege when players try to outsmart eachother would still be confined to a reasonable time period.


Actually, funny you mention this. This is close to the idea I shared with Jorb months ago while we were still active.
This is word for word what I said to him:

Clemins wrote:Hey Jorb, this world has been great! But one of the things I enjoy most in Haven hasn't been realistically possible and that's sieging. Since the plot boost with numens is really easy to get, each time we actually tried to siege someone the time would extend (as intended I suppose) to 5 days. I'd love to spend all my time playing haven and defending the siege, but alas I am human and at the very VERY least i have to sleep sometimes. We ended up resorting to wrecking balls since it still worked sorta like the old system, but they were hard to defend. And since we kinda ruined that option with the signs, sieging just isn't feasible anymore. I'm not too sure what you think of it as it is, but if you're looking for some ideas/input, we thought of something and I'd love to know what you think.

SOOO, I think a lot of people's complaints about the current system is the timing. Hear me out, what if, when you wanted to start a siege the aggressor builds a warflag similar to thingwall claiming. After it's build, the defender will be prompted with the option to pick a defense time window (within like, 24-36 hours or something). After which, the aggressors are notified of the time and both sides have (X) time to get stuff ready for the siege. Once the window arrives, then both sides can start building siege equipment (catapults, rams, towers) and it just works like a normal 8 hour siege until one side loses. And i dont know if this is a stretch, but maybe it could be 4 hours that can be boosted with the numens instead, up to like 6-8-10-12-14 hours during the active siege window?


jorb wrote:We've played with the idea before. May do so again. Thank you for the input.
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Re: MAKE SIEGE REAL AGAIN

Postby Justforthis » Wed Apr 12, 2023 9:48 am

Clemins wrote:Actually, funny you mention this. This is close to the idea I shared with Jorb months ago while we were still active.


Real recognize real, in my first draft I also thought to suggest "building something like a challenge flag". But I adjusted to imagine a sort of hearth magic/action being cast.
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Re: MAKE SIEGE REAL AGAIN

Postby r0ck4ev3r » Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:17 pm

Currently camping a ram with a dozen catapults for days definitely clunky; if the timer was reduced, maybe give the defenders a Immovable Trebuchet that slightly out ranges catapults "can only be built on village claim." functions like a tower but needs to be loaded with boulders. Spit-balling something, because current siege is an un-fun gridlock of recourse drain.
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Re: MAKE SIEGE REAL AGAIN

Postby Luno » Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:21 pm

Clemins wrote:
Justforthis wrote:Or maybe it's possible to make siegeing something to prepare while not spanning 5 days. Lets say you can make a siege challange/declaration(somehow) which will take 3 days to allow the siege, you make the challange against a claim and then you can build and use siege engines near that claim only after 3 days but use them almost instantly. The owners of the claim are warned about the challange by a buff or something. This would provide a specific time when the siege will happen, it would allow for planning from all sides but the actual siege when players try to outsmart eachother would still be confined to a reasonable time period.


Actually, funny you mention this. This is close to the idea I shared with Jorb months ago while we were still active.
This is word for word what I said to him:

Clemins wrote:Hey Jorb, this world has been great! But one of the things I enjoy most in Haven hasn't been realistically possible and that's sieging. Since the plot boost with numens is really easy to get, each time we actually tried to siege someone the time would extend (as intended I suppose) to 5 days. I'd love to spend all my time playing haven and defending the siege, but alas I am human and at the very VERY least i have to sleep sometimes. We ended up resorting to wrecking balls since it still worked sorta like the old system, but they were hard to defend. And since we kinda ruined that option with the signs, sieging just isn't feasible anymore. I'm not too sure what you think of it as it is, but if you're looking for some ideas/input, we thought of something and I'd love to know what you think.

SOOO, I think a lot of people's complaints about the current system is the timing. Hear me out, what if, when you wanted to start a siege the aggressor builds a warflag similar to thingwall claiming. After it's build, the defender will be prompted with the option to pick a defense time window (within like, 24-36 hours or something). After which, the aggressors are notified of the time and both sides have (X) time to get stuff ready for the siege. Once the window arrives, then both sides can start building siege equipment (catapults, rams, towers) and it just works like a normal 8 hour siege until one side loses. And i dont know if this is a stretch, but maybe it could be 4 hours that can be boosted with the numens instead, up to like 6-8-10-12-14 hours during the active siege window?


jorb wrote:We've played with the idea before. May do so again. Thank you for the input.

Perhaps i should add my jorb dm experience to this:
8-Kit wrote:have u considered making siege a "formal" type of thing?
a lawspeaker could craft something called a declaration of war or w/e, not sure about the requirements of such, prob some wax and paper should be included.
the thing would then be used on a claim and from that point the owner of the claim would know somehow that siege has been declared against his claim, after something like 3 irl days or w/e, the siege would start, and make it would take say 5 hours for the siege to happen, maybe 8, but not 24. No need to guard a ram for 24 hours or more, which is absurd, and no need to allow players to siege other people's claims without giving them the chance to defend.
this would likely require a rework on how siege engines work rn, but i feel like its a good middle ground to allow people to raid without selling their lives to this game and allowing defenders to defend their village without making sieging extremely tedious.
someone suggested to me, that the time of preparation(in my suggestion 3 days), should have a randomness to it,s o that attackers are not able to choose the time that benefits their timezone.

Jorb wrote:Yes, ofc we have.
Lots of problems there.
Claims being extended, contracted, removed, or otherwise manipulated.
Esp. problematic when claims are overlapping.

I asked him to elaborate but got no response back.
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Re: MAKE SIEGE REAL AGAIN

Postby SnuggleSnail » Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:09 pm

lol if you want siege to be based solely on combat and no effort from anywhere else you're either in the strongest by far village in the game or dumb
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Re: MAKE SIEGE REAL AGAIN

Postby Halbertz » Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:02 am

Imo you can't really fix sieges simply. The situation in which we are now is the result of accumulated issues with whole mechanics around sieges and pvp in whole that game has during it's life cycle. Like let's just look at it how it is. Right now we have two types of sieges:
1) Where attacker siege someone who can actually fight back (faction vs faction siege etc)
2) Where you put hussar wings and q10 b12 on naked alt near ram
The second in most cases is a waste of time for both parties. That excludes cases where the process itself is being conducted to obtain content outside of the game (siege on grandma pursue, attack on shubla's barrel etc).
For the first cases, sieges are needed only in order to call on the attacked to go out of the gate. Defense itself is nothing in particular, so whole siege stuff could be replaced by message box for the defenders: "You have been sieged! Do you want to teleport outside? Yes/No, I want to play Fortnight"
It's just pathetic.
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