Have seperate system just for the combat, hear me out.

[donatas081294]

Here's a thought not sure if players or devs would agree to it or consider it, but why not have a system entrirely dedicated to combat instead of replying on fep and lp leveing to an unfair advantage.
My take would be that combat would only level up through 1 on few combat encounters. Either player wins and kills/knocks out the oppoment (player/animal/other), fails and gets knocked our or draw/runs away ending the combat mode (de-agros). (I think that's all of possiblities in combat) So out of those 3 depending how it went (that's up for debate and for devs to mess around) the combat "level" would level up.

So for example in base attributes strength no longer would determine how hard you hit or agility on doging or constitution for hard hit points or something like that and for abilities unarmed combat, melee combat and marksmanship would be placed under martial arts and combat school. Also I guess they would level up on depend what you used. If you used mostly or only a bow and arrow then your marksmanship would level up with other stats that could be new implemented or old moved from base attributes/abillitites to combat section or just renamed and added to combat section like for example dodging.

Sure the issues are msotly the same the botting, like people could just create 2 characters and duke it out, but there's a chance that they would lose their characters, so the system could be depedning upon like time used in combat/how long the battle took, moves used and so on. Also combat wounds/scars would also used to level up in combat/combat level.
It might seems more ludicrious, but Loftar/Jorb could try to test this in a seperate test client to see how it goes. Sure more hassle to code, but would be cool to have seperate system for every day acitivies and system just for combat, because now it's kind blend of all.

Also please make hearth magic part of the combat system or have a new skill combat magic. Not asking to have summing cicrcles and casting area fireballs, but anything that could be related to in-games lore and feel. Up to you Jorb/Loftar.

I guess this could encourage people to do more pvp and not just run away and take their take in combat. And for those who ask what's wrong with current system, well lp and fep points can just be easily botted to the extremes making it so you become OP in battle without even participating in a single battle. So this could make combat more revelant. Instead of having just eating and have numbers in hundreds. Not sure how this would work for group battles, but would be cool to see, well at least tested.

[SnuggleSnail]

[donatas081294]

Lol why you're triggered so much? Are you a botter?

[TerraSleet]

What problem does this solve, OP? If it's "unfair advantage" you're trying to solve, you have to go a lot further than this. You have to tear out practically every system that can even remotely affect a player's ability to gain an advantage. Credos, equipment, full loot and permadeath, hunger and energy, the list goes on... H&H is built from its roots as a "hardcore" full loot PVP MMO, it's always been unfair. That's an intrinsic property of full loot PVP unless you make literally everything else irrelevant to it. If you want fair PVP in an MMO, there are plenty of other options out there.

[vatas]

Much more efficient use of dev time would be to give player clear instructions on how to make a properly defended base, rather than trying to remake combat system at conceptual level.

For example, OP of this thread sounds like someone who would be fine getting KO'd and looted at open world if unfortunate enough to cross path with "villain" but quit the game because the villains abused the lack of game knowledge, that is not present neither in-game or on official website (without digging into forums), to completely bypass every siege defense buff. (Probably it could be even argued that if legitimate siege was easier, villains would spend their time doing that instead of looking for the unicorns who found this game and stated playing this game without reading any external/community guides.)

[DonVelD]

my brother in christ you want to change the whole system while it took jorb and loftar years to make boulders from mining not annoying

your idea is trash and overcomplicated and i saw ideas like this for like 50th time, using the cope argument "are you a botter?" is weak

[Clemins]

Yeah, while I agree there are definitly things that could be tweaked *PVP stat caps cough*, this is not a solution to the problems you're posing.

but why not have a system entrirely dedicated to combat instead of replying on fep and lp leveing to an unfair advantage.

But isn't the system you're proposing an "entirely dedicated combat system?" If I skimmed through what you said correctly, you're saying take away the current system to get rid of grinding and replace it with a system that require you grind by forcing you to level up through combat? What does that solve?

I guess this could encourage people to do more pvp and not just run away and take their take in combat.

BIG doubt... Lots of people hide in a corner somewhere and eat/study curios until they have stats ≥ 98.5% of the population, and STILL never fight or run away in fights. The problem with peoples willingness to fight is:

• They're scared about being out stated
• They're scared about being out skilled
• They're scared of losing their gear
• They're scared of wounds
• They're scared of their character dieing
• They're scared...

My take would be that combat would only level up through 1 on few combat encounters. Either player wins and kills/knocks out the oppoment (player/animal/other),

The game already has this, it's how you level up your combat moves...

Sure the issues are msotly the same the botting

This is not going to fix botting, nothing here will fix botting. The entire point of botting (in Haven) is to avoid (mostly) tedious and repetitive tasks to in order to have more time to play the parts of the game that are enjoyable manually. So the fundimental reason bots exist in haven is more reflective on how "fun" certain gameplay mechanics are.

And before the argument of "no, they're just for the advantage ", if making 50,000 midnight blue cheese was FUN, I'd do it. It is not.

The reason I'm actually putting effort into making a reply to this even though it's not really a good use of time, is this is my favorite part of Haven. It's FAR from perfect, and frankly, it's getting further away from it as time goes on. Due in part, to proposed changes like these. Jorb and Loftar DO NOT know the true nature of the PVP gameplay they created because they DO NOT play with it. (Loftar once said (THIS WORLD) "Just put 5/5 points in shield up"...) So, they tend to listen to the cacophony of voices and will occasionally latch onto something that is very uninformed and proposed by someone with just as much inexperience as them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to gatekeep pvp, it's the latter. I want to see more people engaged in pvp, I want to have discussions about how to make it better. But that requires you to first understand this mess before looking at it and just fucking lighting it on fire because you don't get it.
I made a joke thread like a year ago about "removing farming" as commentary about changing a system I don't like/engage with: viewtopic.php?f=70&t=72650
I made this in hopes that it provides an example of what it feels like to read about changing something in the game that is not "technically" broken, but since I "don't like it", that must mean it's "broken" or "bad".

Sigh... Look. I don't blame you or anyone for being apprehensive about PVP, it requires a lot of time and dedication to learn and even more to build a "relevant fighter" every single world. As time goes on and life demands more attention, I (like a lot of people) just don't have time for things like this anymore. So yes, I think the bar should be lowered, but no I don't think an entire rework to the whole system is the answer.

If you really are ambitious about find a good solution to both lowering the bar AND helping solve the " Ain't NO ONE got time for that" issue that please consider this before putting any super game altering ideas into the dev's heads: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=74373

[vatas]

Snail put it very well. Something along the lines of "only efficient way of getting good at PvP is if someone, who is already good, mentors you."

[DonVelD]

Snail put it very well. Something along the lines of "only efficient way of getting good at PvP is if someone, who is already good, mentors you."

yeah pretty much, or a year of trial and error going to pvp almost daily and learning by yourself
thats what i personally did and then i taught clemins pvp by explaining stuff for a few hours & practicing for the same amount

it just shows how much more time consuming it is to learn the "hard" way

though, i love to see people actually want to learn because it seems like most of the playerbase doesn't and they'd rather complain, the people are there and all you need to do is to ask, i even explained how pvp works to enemies just because they asked lol

[Clemins]

Yeah a lot of the nuances of combat is hidden behind either trial-and-error or being mentored/managing to find AND read every mechanic that has been briefly explained in ancient (and now kind of irrelevant) videos and posts on the forum.
I don't blame people for not trying to figure it out on their own with limited resources, let alone, filtering through everything and trying to figure out what is right and wrong.

I wont go into detail but long story short Zadek and his villagers broke into my village very early w13. I was mediocre at pvp at that point because all I knew was stuff I tested and a little bit taught from people who only knew slightly more than me. But after he raided me and KO'd me and my villagers, it didn't bother me. I've always known what I signed up for when playing this game. So instead of throwing a tantrum about losing my nettle pants, I just asked him for advice and he gave it to me. After talking for awhile and getting lessons here and there (as well as just participating in pvp even though I wasn't really built for it), I learned.

And I've been doing the same for anyone who has approached me about PVP this world, and made a bunch of friends along the way. (Hell, even got corrected by some people I've been teaching...)

The initial learning curve is steep as hell, but the little tricks come with time and practice. I started making a "PvP guide video, but my power went out and I lost 6 hours of work and the motivation to make it again.

So let me ask all of you this,
If you want to learn, and the current resources aren't enough, what do you want?

Would a video/series help? Should I actually dedicate time to it? I really don't want to if people don't give a shit.

An updated and refined guide posted on the forum?
A tips and tricks thread?

I want people to learn this without needing to invest as much time as PvP in this game demands. But I'm not sure if that's possible...

Edit: Also, don't forget this game intends for you to rely on other people and trial/error to figure stuff out, this is an intentional choice made by the devs. I don't agree with it and I assume most other people don't too.