Let's talk about removal of mov speed bonus from critters

[SnuggleSnail]

Msheep has a lot of cringe takes on what is reasonable for a new/regular person to do, but he's right about kritter movement speed not being too nab unfriendly/obscure.

• There's detailed guides explaining it unlike most obscure mechanics: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=72160 (hey look, the best resource on how to fight/chase/escape in years is outdated because of an shitty kneejerk change - surely this will help the nabs)
• This world for the first time there are public clients with all of the kritter related features private clients have (funny how often advantages I've had for years going public leads to the advantage getting gutted as soon as the playing field is level)

I doubt anybody who has even a slight interest in PVP is unaware of, or has trouble understanding what they're supposed to do with kritters.

[vatas]

Common case of "hate Snail all you want, but he's right on this matter."

Another example of script usage only getting nerfed AFTER it becomes available to everyone:

Tangentially related: "ash from firebrands" had been a thing since Hafen launch in 2015 but few months after bot for it became publicly available, it got nerfed.

[MightySheep]

You could not find a game like this with a lower skill floor to pvp than haven. Ppl I introduced to this game are able to pvp with a 2 minute instruction on how to pvp.

Are you willing to individually instruct every person who joins this game? If not, my argument has at least some point.

The fact that this game have no tutorial for this stuff doesnt mean the pvp skill floor is high. However Im sure if I was new I could read that thread about combat and then go spar anyone or fight any animals and figure out how openings work then pvp "skill" is just learning to running while reducing openings. Combat moves is also unrelated to "skill" it is arguably bs that some of the most important moves like artful and zigzag are gated behind high lvl mobs Ill grant that but thats a separate discussion than skill floor. It's not a high skill game by any stretch of the imagination. You can unironically learn current pvp within an hour and master it within a week. Now compare that to albion or other similar games.

The reason I dont like this critter change is not because it affects me negatively, I think it is a buff to gankers actually. I dont like it because this extremely low skill floor just got lower. It was 1 of the only minor ways to display "skill" in this pvp system that even a 5 year old can pickup. Not just skill but also complexity, running is now so basic that chases are entirely a dice roll on speed boosts, thats pretty dull if you ask me.

[DonVelD]

I agree with what Mighysheep is saying. I taught Clemins how to PvP in 2-3 hours. He became as good as others after like a few days.

[vatas]

1) I could've used the term "barrier to entry" rather than "skill floor"

2) Some degree of "you need someone to teach you the game" is inherent to anything more complex than tic-tac-toe.

There may not be an useful way to apply following to Haven, but I played EVE Online for years without understanding timers that the entire low/nullsec PvP revolves around. When I came back, they had added combat (can't log out for several minutes) and aggressor (can't use stargates or dock) as proper color-coded UI elements with tooltips, so those could be figured out in 5 minutes now. (Current day EVE Online is full of stuff that makes you go "why wasn't this in the game from the start?" In defence of the developers, the game originally game out in 2003.)

[MightySheep]

I still dont agree with you though because calling it high or low is a relative statement and I can think of wayy more games especially in this genre with higher barrier to entry. I'm honestly struggling to think of one with lower barrier to entry than haven pvp. Mortal online 2 was harder to get into pvp, life is feudal/wurm extremely grindy and lots of pitfalls hard to get into pvp, conan exiles same story, grindy lots of weird mechanics, harder to get into pvp, myth of empires also have mega grind requirement, last oasis harder to get into pvp, not many noobs just big factiosn with big op machines.

How can you mention having played eve and still think haven pvp is hard to get into?

Honestly when were talking about skill I was thinknig theres potentially 1 game where haven might not be lower skill than which is wurm but since you changed it to "barrier to entry" then wurm literally requires years of grind to get into the pvp lol

My first haven world all I did was nonstop pvp and I didnt have any friends who had played the game I just joined myself and pvpd all of world 5, I was a shit pvper but thats all I did because I just gank spruces and I had a lot of fun and success. That was when pvp was way more complex than it is now and perma death. Now pvp is you risk nothing and you have an extremely simple system and stats are equalized. What is the barrier to entry? Wow you have to read a forum thread beforehand and its not instantly intuitive... Even in your example of tic tac toe you have to look up the instructions or have someone teach you first The barrier of combat moves and stats might be a barrier to top tier pvp but not pvp in general. Like I said on my first world I got 30 kills and didnt engage any top tier players at all other than running away once or twice. Also it's really not that big of a barrier. Especially compared to every other game like what I listed. I reckon if I started haven this world as a brand new hermit I could figure out how to get a spear, how to hunt animals with a rowboat and how to farm all the moves within 2 weeks. The guides exist. It's not rocket science. It's not eve online.

This is 1 of the lowest skill, lowest barrier to entry sandbox open world pvp games you can possible find.

[vatas]

How can you mention having played eve and still think haven pvp is hard to get into?d.

In EVE Online you can take a cheap ship and join a fleet without losing any permanent progression or wounding your character.

I have to admit that the whole critter has pretty much gotten under my skin - it just feels so nonsensical (compared to other basics like "carry water and manage your sips so you can run longer") to tell someone that "big part of this game is to complete a Credo, not intended by developers for PvP at all, and chase small animals for speed bonus."

[MightySheep]

The credo part I wont try to defend that is stupid but the mechanic itself is fine and important to give movement/pvp the slightest bit of depth. I just wish it was put on a skill or something instead.

[vatas]

I've been trying to formulate an idea that would lift the mechanic from animals to some sort of Wisp or Sprite (fae, not the soft drink) that you can chase for extra speed instead.

Inherent advantage: you can now balance the amount of things to chase for speed bonus independent of critter spawns.

Great Idea Haver Zone: Chasing a Speed Bonus Wisp gives debuff(s) to discourage fighters from using them. Problem: unless you make the debuff a complete cripple, chasers will have some people willingly take the debuff to reach and try to slow down the target so non-debuffed chaser can catch up.

Thinking about it, debuff could only be reduction in grievous damage. Best case scenario, this would introduce a situation where you've basically been caught, you will almost certainly KO, but you can keep running so you get less wounds (debuffed chasers forced to KO you) instead of more wounds or even death from murderous rage b12 boi.

[SnuggleSnail]

There is no reason to be fixing things that aren't broken when there are broken things to be fixing instead. Revert to the shit people already liked and focus on something people hate.