Punishing criminals is not the way to go

[linkfanpc]

PSA

Stop proposing ways to punish criminals like with karma or summoning systems, or stat reductions, or inability to teleport, or being made easy to raid, or being made immune to law and able to be attacked/robbed/killed/raided without consequence.

Listen, we know, it's been an abnormally harsh world start. TONS of criminals running around, aggroing, KOing, robbing, raiding anyone they come across. I had a guy get attacked and KOed at the tail end of day 1, and by the end of day 2 when everyone was asleep, a few bases were robbed.

HOWEVER, i've been seeing a huge amount of posts both here and on Steam advocating for changes to the system to make crimes hard or impossible to commit, criminals to be weakened, made easily sieged, etc etc, all the way up to the god-forbidden "add a PvP toggle".

There are two huge, HUGE problems with these sort of changes proposed;

1: It goes completely against the game's themes and ideas. H&H is a game about freedom and equality, you see that tree? You could chop it down, or pick its seeds and plant it a family. You see that house? You could level it to the ground, or leave gifts inside. See that guy? You could beat and rob him, or offer your heartfelt friendship. You can do anything you like and there are no obtuse systems or moderators in place to say "whoa whoa whoa, KOSing? In MY hardcore wilderness survival game?!" Open PvP and crime are just as integral to the game as Open PvE and farming.

and FAR more importantly, 2: This is an online MMO. Do you know what that means? Do you really? I'll spoil it for you; EVERYONE wants that advantage every way and every place they can get it. It's a competition, it's a sport, it's a GAME. The goal is to continue, and here's the thing, it's an open sandbox game, where the only goal is one you set for yourself. What does this mean, ultimately? It means for those guys whose goal is to be the strongest, the biggest baddest and coolest, they'll take every advantage they can get to make you the weakest. If you get bad karma for killing people, your enemies will send armies of naked alts to force you to kill them to reduce your karma. It means if you get your stats reduced when you commit crimes, people will build massive claims over you forcing you to "steal" your items back and reduce your stats to 1. It means if a criminal makes the claim he lives on weaker and more prone to raiding, your enemies will make 10 crime alts and sneak them onto your property and raid you while you're weakened. It means if, once branded an outlaw, anyone can commit crimes against you, or your claim, your enemy will attack you suddenly, surround you completely, and force you to hit back once, and...surprise! He was at 1 HP! You killed him, by accident, and now his friends sprint in ready to annihilate you, rob you, kill you, raze your base to the ground, without consequence, because you're an "outlaw".

Being a criminal is a playstyle, just like a farmer, hunter, or miner. Punishing them for playing that playstyle, or implementing ridiculous systems that mark them as "that one playstyle you shouldn't play" goes against everything the game stands for and, more pressingly, opens the door for absurd exploits that only HURT the people afraid of injury, loss and death.

Now i'm not gonna make a C&I post with just critique, so here are my IDEAS as well on how to handle crime and punishment:

Being a criminal should strip you of protection against your own greatest tool; sneakiness and subtlety.

When talking about ways to make commiting crimes a CHALLENGE, as a game should have, and making them unique to a unique playstyle, i try to keep two things in mind; ensure it makes sense lore-wise and theme-wise and isn't some IP-tracked arbitrary bad number that goes up, and ensure it isn't something that can be flipped onto innocent people, like having your stats reduces when you commit a crime. So, that being said:

Criminals ambush you while you're picking berries and at your most vulnerable, and you can't do that back because they are in full war gear and will immediately hearth home if you try anything. They go in on alts and disposable armor and weapons and you have your good gear, gildings and items on you. Thus, being a criminal should make it easier for people to flip the script and turn the turntables on YOU. IE, tracking needs an improvement to allow us to give criminals a taste of their own medicine. By being a criminal, you begin a circle of AMBUSH someone in the wild or their house while they're vulnerable, EXPOSE yourself to rangers and neighbors finding out what you did, OPEN yourself to having an even better bigger ambush set on YOU, forcing YOU to be the defender for once.

By far my favorite suggestion as of recent is from DDD:

Tracking could just use some buffs:

1. Let the tracker see how different the perp's combat stats are. Give a message like "you are weaker/about equal/stronger than the perp," based on the % difference of an aggregate of combat stats, so rangers don't get baited into tracking to a perp that will just smash their face in.

2. Make some hearth magic that gives some buff to the ranger specifically in combat against the perp. Equalizing stats by a % if they're lower would be the least abusable.

To add onto this, a scent should tell you everything a ranger would need to know. Currently knowing a location does little for you; you should know if you any chance against this particular character among other things. But the big idea here is that by committing crimes you should be afraid of a ranger who gathers enough info to create other advantages against you other than having stats and a sword.

For one, make scents stack like DDD later suggested. I also think heinous scents should give slightly deeper information; like if the perp is currently standing on claimed land or in the wilderness, to allow ambushing be easier.

Make the scrying ball easier to make. It takes a fucking rock crystal? I doubt anyone's ever made one.

And I would like to see nidbanes made easier to make too, but reworked to be a weak henchman that will assist you come the hour of vengeance. They follow either the victim, or ranger, or both, around and engage the perp as soon as its master does. I don't think they should scale with scent type, instead you can only make 1 per crime commited. So stealing an item will allow a ranger to maybe make 1 nidbane to help him fight you, but beating, robbing, raiding and killing someone could leave a ranger with 4, 5, 6 weak nidbanes to curse you, but that's a shower thought.

But honestly the biggest problem right now is how easy it is not just to commit crime, but do it constantly and many times, with the only tool being given to fight that is telling you a rough direction the perp is in. Nidbanes and scrying balls range from stupidly annoying to make, to impossible if you don't get lucky with mandrake spawns.

I think that wanton, meaningless crime for the sake of crime should be the only time real punishment kicks in.

One wild idea is some sort of "curse" stat that represents the spirit of the Havens leaving your cruel sinful body. It could cause people within a few minimaps to get a chill down their spine, alerting them to an accursed maniac nearby. The only way to get this would be to beat and rob multiple people per day, and merely makes doing it constantly more and more frustrating.

But as an example there's a village near me that preys only on the weak, bashing fences and bulldozing timber houses and drying frames, but hearthing home at the sight of my character with a bronze sword. These are the most slippery and pathetic criminals and i do think some steps need to be taken to allow me and their victims to do SOMETHING against it, and in my opinion the best way to do this is to pile on minor inconveniences that only people who know you, know what you're doing and live close enough nearby can take advantage of, and isn't something you can accidentally accrue and suffer from, unless you're criminal scum. These could be things like:

Assault should always redhand you. You shouldn't be able to attack me, fail, and immediately hearth home before i retaliate, to try an ambush on me again 2 minutes later. (If you aren't a criminal, just don't aggro people without an actual escape plan in mind.)
Assault should Outlaw you too, but only for an hour or two, and:
Having outlaw should make you hearth home 200-500% slower. If you're going to try to beat people before they can escape, you should be forced to fight them before you can escape.
(Above suggestions wouldn't affect sprucecaps and claim owners protecting themselves as they can just flee back into their base. Wandering criminals on the other hand would be the only ones affected.)
You should be able to memorize perps off heinous scents. (So a ranger knows when he meets his foe, including when not actively tracking him and just stumbling upon him.)
Bashing walls and fences should take more SHP; if you break into a base, alone, it makes sense you would be exhausted and the residents would get a small advantage to protect their land.
Rangers should have a base ability to sense nearby scents, meaning leaving a ton of scents across noob bases and spots in the forest where you attacked them, makes it easier for players to target you.
Tracking a scent should show the direction and info to anyone in your party.
And finally, you and your party should be able to attack anyone bashing your claim, even before it's dry, to prevent that constant early game issue of can't make a claim because can't protect claim because i don't have a claim.

Bottom line, being a criminal should be an open acceptance that you'll have a target painted on your back, not an acceptance that you're weaker and less advantaged than everyone else because you're "bad"; not be a straight up nerf and debuff, instead allowing people willing to take matters into their own hands and fight you to...well, DO SO.

(Sorry if this post is kinda all over the place i'm really tired but can't sleep because i keep seeing post upon post of "pvp is bad and should be removed and anyone who likes it or disagrees with me is stupid and not as smart and cool and nice and handsome as me and i have the moral highground")

[Lojka]

will drop off another idea:

criminal acts add to outlaw timer
1 stolen item is 5h outlaw, 10 stolen items is 50h outlaw

Half of criminals will think against tagging every spruce

right now, if someone is already on murder outlaw, nothing stops him to make more crimes, he just loose "nothing" from griefing others

[Zampfeo]

I agree ranging could use a buff and buffing tracking is a good method, but I doubt getting a preview of the perp's stats would be enough to change anything. There's still some issues:

• The perp probably won't be alone
• The perp could just hearth home upon seeing his ranger
• Tracking via scents is time consuming
• There isn't much incentive for anyone to range on the behalf of sprucecaps
• The perp getting KO'd isn't much of a setback considering they're probably wearing throwaway gear

Edit: Tracking buffs would also probably be disproportionately used against high-profile faction folks instead of random criminals

[Kaios]

I get why players make those suggestions and I do think some of them such as a karma system could be implemented in ways that aren't unnecessarily detrimental towards anyone in particular.

However I do agree with you that when providing suggestions in that regard, players should try and focus on ideas that include methods they have to use themselves such as tracking, rather than some form of automatic punishment not requiring them to do anything.

Players should certainly be seeking their own justice, but like I've said before the majority of them lack the tools to be capable of doing so which is where I think the focus should be. I agree with Zampfeo that showing their stats probably isn't too meaningful by itself, sure that's useful information for players to have but ultimately I don't think that's going to change much for the majority when it comes to tracking scents or pvp in general.

As a side note, this world start does not seem like it has been very good for new and casual players which is rather ironic considering that should have been the most important aspect in the steam release. Maybe someone has a differing opinion but that's how it seems to me so far. Many of the changes such as raising the requirements for finery forge or lack of metal until deeper levels haven't had much impact on any factions/larger villages but have had a PROFOUND impact on new/casuals. I'd really like to know who is giving them these suggestions or if they are coming up with them on their own because most of these useless changes offer little to no consideration towards new players especially.

[WowGain]

will drop off another idea:

criminal acts add to outlaw timer
1 stolen item is 5h outlaw, 10 stolen items is 50h outlaw

Half of criminals will think against tagging every spruce

right now, if someone is already on murder outlaw, nothing stops him to make more crimes, he just loose "nothing" from griefing others

Youre mentally cooked if you think anyone cares about the Outlaw debuff outside of the times the server crashes while you're outside at 3am and want to go to bed.

[Sevenless]

My main concern is that I don't agree with your assumptions:

1/ "Haven is about freedom and equality"

This already isn't true. Actions have costs. Leaving scents, SHP costs, stat requirements, LP required to buy skills. All games have inbuilt limitations, haven is no different. Changing those limitations is a completely fair and valid method of trying to nudge player behaviour. Also top keks about any concept of "equality" being related to this game. This game is about equality only in the most libertarian sense, meaning what it actually has is inequality that makes a civil war torn shithole look pleasant in comparison.

2/ "People will take advantage they can get"

And? We're changing the framework of the game, but the *entire* game is already artificially created. Why can't I run forever? Because of a couple lines of code. This shapes player behaviour such as pvpers carrying excess water in order to be able to run down targets and outrun pursuers. If we change incentives, we change the resulting metagame and player actions as a result. We already have attempts at this in realms for example, where random hermits generate a resource for the realm owners which gives at least some incentive for them to not murder everyone (even if it ends up being a rather ineffective incentive).


I can't comment about the rest of the post because I fundamentally disagree with your premises that started the suggestion though.

[linkfanpc]

(in all honesty i should have saved this as draft and wrote it in the morning i don't like how it turned out)

1/ "Haven is about freedom and equality"

This already isn't true. Actions have costs. Leaving scents, SHP costs, stat requirements, LP required to buy skills. All games have inbuilt limitations, haven is no different. Changing those limitations is a completely fair and valid method of trying to nudge player behaviour. Also top keks about any concept of "equality" being related to this game. This game is about equality only in the most libertarian sense, meaning what it actually has is inequality that makes a civil war torn shithole look pleasant in comparison.

What i meant by that was freedom and equality in playstyles. Just like how you aren't FORCED to play a miner to enjoy the game, you can farm and hunt without metal or just trade for it if you want it, you shouldn't be FORCED to not play as an outlaw, but a huge amount of people wanted that. To make being a criminal a thing that you are actively punished for just for daring to play, because in their minds it's the "wrong way to play" or "not what the game is about", when that's dead wrong. The game is about freedom; specifically, freedom to play any way you want. You can be a nice guy, a hermit, an asshole, an unseen thief, whatever. Trying to disallow or prohibit some of those just because they involve hurting or stealing from you is selfish and ridiculous.

2/ "People will take advantage they can get"

And? We're changing the framework of the game, but the *entire* game is already artificially created. Why can't I run forever? Because of a couple lines of code. This shapes player behaviour such as pvpers carrying excess water in order to be able to run down targets and outrun pursuers. If we change incentives, we change the resulting metagame and player actions as a result. We already have attempts at this in realms for example, where random hermits generate a resource for the realm owners which gives at least some incentive for them to not murder everyone (even if it ends up being a rather ineffective incentive).

I don't know what you took from this, but my only point there was that if punishment for crime was abuseable or exploitable, it will be. Thus suggestions like "you become raidable" or "you get a wound" are stupid; people will take advantage of that and try to force those punishments on you.

My bottom line suggestion was that "punishment" for criminals should be something victims and ranger have to seek out and use, IE improved tracking system, rather than an inherent debuff applied to anyone who engages in crime.

[animary]

"freedom to play any way you want. You can be a nice guy, a hermit, an asshole, an unseen thief, whatever"

In RL you can do that also, but there are repercussions for being a "criminal" in RL, so why not in the game.

""punishment" for criminals should be something victims and ranger have to seek out and use"

Fine, except that those "criminals" are usually mere bullies whose victims are newcomers or players with poor combat skills, for whom it would be suicide to track down that person who attacked them or trashed their farm.

This "I love to hunt sprucecaps" mentality will frustrate many new players, and their experience will deter many other potential players.

[Sevenless]

What i meant by that was freedom and equality in playstyles. Just like how you aren't FORCED to play a miner to enjoy the game, you can farm and hunt without metal or just trade for it if you want it, you shouldn't be FORCED to not play as an outlaw, but a huge amount of people wanted that. To make being a criminal a thing that you are actively punished for just for daring to play, because in their minds it's the "wrong way to play" or "not what the game is about", when that's dead wrong. The game is about freedom; specifically, freedom to play any way you want. You can be a nice guy, a hermit, an asshole, an unseen thief, whatever. Trying to disallow or prohibit some of those just because they involve hurting or stealing from you is selfish and ridiculous.

Alright, I can see more where you're coming from there. However PvP is unique as a playstyle. It's the only playstyle that derives a large source of its engagement from actively hurting other player's playstyle. If this is somehow magically formulated such that it's only PvP vs PvP who cares. But the moment you open the can of worms to let PvPers attack everyone else it's no longer as simple as "play any way you want".

I definitely agree though that the cost of skullduggery being "You're not allowed to play for X time" detracts from the fun of pvp. But remember that the vast majority of the playerbase are non-pvpers being hunted. What they want is for PvPers to fight other PvPers primarily so they think "What if we can add more punishments to make hermit hunting less fun so the PvPers do other stuff instead".

The answer to these posts are often as not "That would make pvp not fun" implying PvPers are in a sense just vampiring fun off hurting players who don't want that type of content. In all fairness, many of the suggestions do also have impacts on the combat system but that's mostly a ripple of combat in this game being movement based. Any attempt to help people escape => direct impacts on how fighting works.

I don't know what you took from this, but my only point there was that if punishment for crime was abuseable or exploitable, it will be. Thus suggestions like "you become raidable" or "you get a wound" are stupid; people will take advantage of that and try to force those punishments on you.

My bottom line suggestion was that "punishment" for criminals should be something victims and ranger have to seek out and use, IE improved tracking system, rather than an inherent debuff applied to anyone who engages in crime.

Seems like I misunderstood, apologies. We have examples of that, ie Nidbanes. Not implemented the best due to it depending on high Q mats and a special statted alt ye olde hermits won't have. (before we talk about the cheesability of nids even)

But I'd highly advise against encouraging "Rangers". They don't exist anymore, and they only ever did because one pvp group got bored and were having a giggle. Arguably not sure it ever existed so much as it was just a couple well known forum personality's hobby. Also that system functioned very differently due to hearth fire summoning and much easier raiding. I don't think easier raiding would make pvp on the non-pvper any easier.

[linkfanpc]

But I'd highly advise against encouraging "Rangers". They don't exist anymore, and they only ever did because one pvp group got bored and were having a giggle.

I've been a ranger the last 3 worlds. Crippled a guy named Carrot Knight who was killing sprucecaps, his village mate told me he ragequit after that, among other smaller less eventful encounters. It's really fun, i like being a protector of those less fortunate than me, but there are sooo few tools at my disposal compared to a criminal. Nidbanes are garbage, scrying balls are not achievable, even tracking does nothing more than tell me where the guy lives; or where his hearthfire is at least.

Just having a little more information like when he's outside his base, and being confident that he can't port home the moment he sees someone his same strength, would be all i need to set up an ambush with a couple allies, beat him down, steal his gear, and probably make him stop playing. Criminals have the element of surprise and preparation over their prey, I should be able to make criminals my prey and have even MORE information and preparation over them. A criminal who just murdered or robbed someone should have that fear in the back of his mind that i might be tracking him right now, using various resources left by his evidence, waiting for him to leave. That, i think, is what it all boils down to for me.

I agree with the rest of your posts tho. balancing crime and justice in this game is a nasty beast. But i'd rather have our current wanton destruction than eliminating all forms of PvP and crimes altogether because the threat of that is what keeps me interested in this game.