Rework Chases: Escape Burrows

[DDDsDD999]

tl;dr: Add a structure like a giga-speed buff that instantly ends chases, but buff chasing so some damage is dealt by the time someone can escape to it. This is mostly something a combat rework could be designed around, the current system would be a bit wonky with it.

Problems with chasing:

• If the runner knows how it works they take 0 damage, slowly gain distance, and after 30ish minutes port away, e.g. nothing ever happens
• If the runner doesn't know how it works/isn't prepared, they will get downed pretty quickly
• Any chase gets ended instantly if the runner has a friend with a boat or a safe pali nearby

Solution:
1. Provide a mechanic to clearly and abruptly end chases:
Escape burrows:

• Right click one to be teleported into a small safe zone, even while in combat
• The player is given a choice like the KO'd window where after a minute has passed they either teleport to hearthfire, to nearest thingwall if known, randomly a couple minimaps away, or back where they came from.
• The same player cannot use the same burrow for 30 minutes
• They spawn at somewhat uniform distances apart so they're vaguely predictable in distance, e.g. 20 minimaps or so
• Usable as long as they're in render, so they can't be blocked off
• Should move a couple minimaps over every few hours
• While in combat you get pointers like questgivers to the nearest one in each direction, and also a toggle to see them at all times

2. Heavily buff chasing to compensate

• Giving chases a clear end point means they can balanced to be more of a tug and pull with moments of high tension. With this framework a combat rework could be designed with moves such as:
  • Chasing moves, gap closers for gankers
  • Moves to counter attack and require gankers to back up when too many are close
  • Defensive options to minimize damage and buy time
  • Crowd control abilities could be added, but seems a bit risky
• Until we have a combat rework other things that could be changed:
  • Increasing attack range
  • Increasing pursue bonus
  • Nerf or maybe remove kritters
  • Nerf or maybe remove speed buffs

3. Additionally,

• Drinking water is not intuitive to new players, and they don't carry enough water; some possible changes:
  
  • Lower drinking amount from 0.5L to 0.1L
  • Make drinking without water regenerate stamina as if drinking q10 water
  • Or just rework running/stamina entirely so carrying water isn't necessary at all

Reasons for change:

• Nerfs safe palis/friends nearby with boats since it basically hands them out to free for everyone, and chases can be balanced around them
• Chases are inherently shorter, so they're less time consuming and people don't need to carry as much water/food to escape
• Changes in movement speed during combat are less impactful, and can be added more freely, since they won't accumulate over as long of a period of time
• Chases can be shortened/lengthened as seen appropriate by making the burrows more/less frequent

[Sevenless]

But this ruins pvp!

I feel like the implications on small scale pvp are as described, but I'm wondering if this actually changes larger scale chases? I guess probably given how many hours they can go on that everyone from the running side could escape.

[maze]

Sure; I would not mind trying this out maybe for one world~ see if we like it or not.

100% agree that water needs changes in pvp; I'm going to say the bad word~ custom clients already trivialize drinking water. Carrying 500L of water feels bad and whom ever has more water normall wins in combat. if someone is not in fighter mode~ they lose because they can't run away. if they don't have the best belt they lose.

The problem I do see however~ how does redhanded players work with this system? they can't just be teleported back to their H-fires.

[Kaios]

Would these changes help players like this, you think? Or in general how do these changes help anything with regard to boat/ship combat in water and on the ocean? Should the result of ship combat always simply be go to land, or die if in the middle of the ocean? The game has modes of transportation other than walking/running on land you know.

Honestly it wouldn't be wrong to use hacker guy as a baseline reference for the level of combat experience most players have. I could see myself making some of those mistakes too like how would I know that sailing over the deep ocean is slower? I'm not sure if that's even true.

I can't think of an apt comparison, but there's probably an ideal metaphor for trying to fix a bad thing instead of replacing a bad thing.

[waga]

how would I know that sailing over the deep ocean is slower? I'm not sure if that's even true.

Snekkja has higher base speed than Knarr. However Snekkja will be significantly slowed when in High Seas.

https://ringofbrodgar.com/wiki/Snekkja

[Kaios]

When someone relies on incorrect wiki information, they are told that the wiki may not always be up to date. When someone has a question about mechanics, they are linked the wiki? Hmm, these don't seem to add up.

So are we expecting every new player to access the wiki and check for every single detail about every single mechanic? What about all the players that are completely blocked from accessing it such as in Russia? A large portion of the player base is Russian, can they even access the wiki?

[Archiplex]

I like the idea of generally making combat quicker/deadlier if in an "unsafe" place. While I don't mind the burrows, I'd also like to see some sort of mechanic that villages/realms could employ to make 'artifical' safe burrow-type stuff. (limited amounts, of course, and would prevent the natural spawning of other burrows nearby) Players should feel safer closer to the heart of their village, and more at risk when further away. I've always disliked that safe-palis are necessary to do this sort of thing and the mechanic isn't exactly very intuitive for new players, of whom would assume visitor gates provide safety (when in reality, could be a death trap due to the inability to traverse them mid-combat)

Otherwise, I like the idea, but I think too much of it is predisposed on jorbtar being willing to mess with combat moves/styles as well. I did really love those chasing moves from that small combat test that was a bit more realtime.

how would I know that sailing over the deep ocean is slower? I'm not sure if that's even true.

Snekkja has higher base speed than Knarr. However Snekkja will be significantly slowed when in High Seas.

https://ringofbrodgar.com/wiki/Snekkja

although i already knew this, relying on the wiki for this sort of vital information is stupid, given how much other information on the wiki can/is wrong, or is missing. Tbh a better example was the fact that you lose the ability to move the snekkja if you drop your keys (I thought it only prevented boarding, not moving it at all) or that you can't deep-swim while carrying an object and thus can soft-lock yourself at all if you happen to lose your key and also pick up an object.

[Kaios]

I wonder if it might be possible for the "burrows" or any other combat related object such as speed buffs to spawn in at random locations on the occurrence of combat and are only visible to those participating in the fight. Or in other words, only visible to those that have a combat relation with each other or someone else relative to the fight. For example Player A and Player B are in combat, and Player C is in combat with Player A but NOT Player B. Player C is relative to the overall fight and thus the same burrows, etc. are visible to them too.

I think that would be a little better than making them semi-permanent map objects and players won't know where those things are going to be ahead of time, necessitating the need to strategize and make decisions in the midst of battle. No open combat relations at all would mean no visible buffs or escapes. Perhaps that's preferential for this type of pvp? I'm not really sure.

although i already knew this, relying on the wiki for this sort of vital information is stupid, given how much other information on the wiki can/is wrong, or is missing. Tbh a better example was the fact that you lose the ability to move the snekkja if you drop your keys (I thought it only prevented boarding, not moving it at all) or that you can't deep-swim while carrying an object and thus can soft-lock yourself at all if you happen to lose your key and also pick up an object.

You're right I picked the worst one lol, it was my assumption as well that you could still sail without the key so long as you're already at the helm.

[Lojka]

if there wasn't so much lethality by cleaves/water, reworking chasing is not that important
u got your items stolen, body ravaged, but can still play

[DDDsDD999]

The problem I do see however~ how does redhanded players work with this system? they can't just be teleported back to their H-fires.

There's other options the devs could do like spawn randomly a few minimaps away or go to the province's thingwall. If the only option is the former it could likely result in an additional chase if they're being tracked while redhanded, which I don't think is bad.

Would these changes help players like this, you think? Or in general how do these changes help anything with regard to boat/ship combat in water and on the ocean? Should the result of ship combat always simply be go to land, or die if in the middle of the ocean? The game has modes of transportation other than walking/running on land you know.

That guy in specific can't be helped, but a system of a similar nature adapted to water could help people. Just add similar safe-points spawn in water, and design ship movement and combat with them in mind. But since ship-combat is going to stay fucked until OCO and the devs feel like making a system for it, water-burrows can probably be shelved until 2030.

Honestly it wouldn't be wrong to use hacker guy as a baseline reference for the level of combat experience most players have. I could see myself making some of those mistakes too like how would I know that sailing over the deep ocean is slower? I'm not sure if that's even true.

The game is pretty complex, and only so much of it can be smoothed out by removing noob-traps, adjusting mechanics, and adding tutorials. At some point I think a player should likely get downed if chased by someone with higher knowledge of the game and higher combat stats and there isn't a safe escape nearby. Different movement speeds on different types of terrain is a game knowledge thing, and I doubt removing it would significantly help the game.

I wonder if it might be possible for the "burrows" or any other combat related object such as speed buffs to spawn in at random locations on the occurrence of combat and are only visible to those participating in the fight. Or in other words, only visible to those that have a combat relation with each other or someone else relative to the fight. For example Player A and Player B are in combat, and Player C is in combat with Player A but NOT Player B. Player C is relative to the overall fight and thus the same burrows, etc. are visible to them too.

I think that would be a little better than making them semi-permanent map objects and players won't know where those things are going to be ahead of time, necessitating the need to strategize and make decisions in the midst of battle. No open combat relations at all would mean no visible buffs or escapes. Perhaps that's preferential for this type of pvp? I'm not really sure.

What's stopping people from keeping a friend/alt in aggro at all times so they know where the burrows are anyway and can stay close? If changing aggro changes the burrows, gankers would purposefully lose aggro and catch up on horses. Also just having them out in the world might make them more intuitive for new players, especially if they have a reason to be used for non-pvp scenarios, e.g. pve or as an exploration tool.