Why a Map Without Boundries is a Boring One

[Pumpkin]

Let me preface my argument by saying that I do not like change. I disliked the wall strength changes, I disliked the pathfinding changes, I disliked the increased cost of the black arts (which I still dislike, yet that is another thread in itself). So when I write this, I consider that maybe this will once again be an example of me being proven wrong. That in fact, having an ever expanding map is actually a good thing. However, I fear that will not be the case.

It seems to me that the current plan is that the map will endlessly expand itself when a player reaches the edge of a 'super grid', generating the terrain on the fly before the player reaches the actual map edge. While that may sound very fancy and interesting, and while it might well work for single player games, I will now outline why I think it is a terrible choice for a MMO.

The Determined (and unemployed) Thief
There does not seem to be anything stopping a thief, or a high level character for that matter, walking far, far out into ungenerated areas, perhaps even 10+ hours of constant walking in one specific direction, and setting up a hearth.

*Theft Scents will decay before players can actually walk to thief's location.
*Thief can join a village closer to society and port back and forth at will.
*If tracking is fixed, it will be nigh impossible to get an accurate fix if their stealth is reasonably high.

Hay Guyz, Where is Everyone?
The player base isn't huge. Overcrowding is -just- becoming an issue on a single supergrid, the possibility of an unlimited number of supergrids will just lead to players becoming more and more spread out, and the common newbie complaint of the world appearing desolate and empty will be even more true in the new map.

*If settlements are hours away from each other, no one will be willing to make the effort to travel to trade.
*Crowding and limited resources lead to conflict. Conflict is good.

If there is no end to the map, there is no end to resources. It does not matter if gold is 'rare', that just means you have to walk further to spawn a new supergrid, which will hopefully have gold on. If every town is self-sufficient for all resources there is no reason for interaction nor for conflict. This will lead to massive stagnation.

Cartography is fun, look at the map I made! Oh wait.
I, and other people, like making maps. We like writing little notes. It is fun. If the world is constantly expanding, no matter how we try maps will become outdated. It will also be impossible to ever draw a 'complete' map.

The Grass is Greener on the Other Supergrid
No matter where you settle, no matter how much you like your position, it will always be possible that if you had just gone to another supergrid it would have generated a better location.
*Encourages community fragmentation, as people move away from long established settlements for better resource/animal hunting locations.
*A randomly generated world often feels soulless, which leads me to my next point.

From Endless Grassland to an Endless Patchwork
The map we currently have feels barren and empty. Massive swathes of grassland with small islands of varying terrain. It doesn't feel real, there are no landmarks. It just feels dead and boring. No matter how much terrain variation has been introduced, if the scale of the world is endlessly expandable, it will end up feeling the exact same. A limited world leads to familiarity, which is good.
*For example, it is much more fulfilling to talk about how you fought some guys in the northernmost forest near camp X, rather than saying you fought some guys in supergrid 5 in a random blob swamp.



In Conclusion

I am not totally against the concept of randomly generating terrain to meet the players needs, but I feel that allowing it to be done autonomously, with such a low game population, is a huge risk. Expanding the map should be partnered with features that would require it, such as much more difficult monsters, or more terrain types. Otherwise we shall end up with a massive world generated by individuals wandering around, and then any of these features that are added, will be a massive distance from civilisation and already generated terrain.

My suggestion? Replace the invisible boundry with unlimited deep water, have the next map be 2-4 supergrids in size, and have it be one large island.

LOOK AT ALL DESE WORDS

[Rift]

i actually read it all. i swear.

The Determined (and unemployed) Thief

Why i admit this is a concern. [Teleportation being something i'm not exactly for, purely because i find it so goddamn useful.]
Your implying thief is able to get to dangerous area -> high level thief -> extremely large risk if caught -> loses a great deal but extremly rarely
this seems fine to me. I don't think it should be as easy to catch thieves as is currently... and thus them having hearths farther away both means that they have more to lose [since they are likely stronger to get it there] and that they are harder to catch.

Hay Guyz, Where is Everyone?

Well, in all honestly, regardless of mapsize, i've always believed that the start point will keep suffering the same problems short of people being there 24/7 to stop newbies destroying it.. its just a intutitive thing to do at the start.. [you need resources, there are resources around you, why not use them?]
As for settlements getting far away from each other. Well, that doesn't strike me as a horrible thing, in fact it strikes me as good.. that you might have villages that no one knows where exists, and villages that it is hard and risky to get to. However, i know for a fact that lots of people want to trade, so will likely put effort into trading with each other. In addition, travel along rivers/ocean will be faster whenever boats get in, so most people seem to want to build on the water or atleast relatively near it, to promote trade. I think it's unlikely to "hurt" trade nearly as much as you think.. in fact i think the fact people will have a harder time getting resources [since its unlikely everything will be perfect in one place].. and the fact that the larger map allows that... will encourage trade far more then just adding a supergrid or 2.
As for crowing leads to limited resources leading to conflict... well.. it does but it also leads to everyone looking over their sholder.. if you have 5 neighbours you tend to get into power balances, where if you attack one, the others might destroy you, so you can never managed to attack them. Being more spread out might help this.

Cartography is fun, look at the map I made! Oh wait.

Um.. your complaining about the point that you will have to keep making more maps? ....
...
...
what would be the point of the skill if after a week all the maps were done with only minor additions here and there?
...
shouldn't it keep evolving?
i am unsure how you can even imagine the skill working without having to keep making more maps.

The Grass is Greener on the Other Supergrid

So? how is this bad? It means people will keep seeking out new stuff/places. Ie.. keep the gameworld evolving in fresh. This sounds good to me?
As to souless... well this world is randomly generated as well [with only a few things added by hand like some puddles here and there] but it has soul because of all the terraforming players have been doing, i don't seen how thats any different... infact because there is more room i can only see that players have a potentially greater impact.

From Endless Grassland to an Endless Patchwork

To me, this map has gotten steadily more full, to the point of bursting.. everywhere i go i run into buildings, claims ect.. no where lacks them anymore... It seems nothing like empty. I am unsure why you would want the wilderness to feel "full"... i can barely walk 10feet without running into "something" alive... But i like the idea of a barren land, full of animals, and little villages that bring civilization to it, spaced out.

In Conclusion

Well, i'm completely for it, and am extreamly excited. In the coming weeks no doubt we will see what happens regardless.

[Blaze]

Thief part

1. If someone is willing to click constantly in one direction pathing around obstacles, THEN walk all the way back to a civilization, THEN steal from a town risking getting caught and murdered and having all that work turn to nothing. That person definitely deserves the security.
2. Teleporting is already a problem, hopefully it'll be addressed eventually. (Unreachable hearthfires in cabins blocked by more cabins.)
3. Isn't that kinda the point of stealth?

People part

1. Not all villages will be hours away from each other, those villages will trade between each other.
2. Not everyone likes conflict. Fact o' life. If people want to play Harvest Moon the MMO, they're welcome to try.
3. They've already said resources will be spaced, making one gigantic town impractical to all but the most hardcore I.E. several months of constant work.
4. Too many people in a limited area? DO NOT WANT. Just take a look at the area around Brodgar.

Cartography part

Then we shouldn't bother exploring the universe since it'll be impossible to ever draw a complete map.
Change happens, another fact o' life. J&L are probably thinking of things to change to screw us all over as we speak.

Grass is greener part

Some people like settling, some people have a constant sense of wanderlust, and they're some in between. If people settle early then find another place that's better than the place they settles they could:
A. Commence facepalm
B. Move there
C. Send a contigent of players to colonize it
D. Any combination of the above.

There will be a time when colonists, no matter how determined they are, will eventually go "fuck this" and settle somewhere. If they want to travel for several weeks before finding a suitable place, then more power to them.

Endless Patchwork part

I find too much familiarity boring, and I'm sure some people do too. Ever explored a world so thoroughly that there's nothing left to find? I searched through almost all of Oblivion's world, and now there's not much reason to play. An endless world doesn't stop people from staying in familiar places.

My conclusion that is totally unrelated to the previously stated points which makes the rest of the post mostly unnecessary
I somewhat agree that ONE person shouldn't be able to create a world section by himself/herself by just walking too far. If it required say.. a shitton of resources, then it'd work out.

[Pumpkin]

Your implying thief is able to get to dangerous area..

I am implying that if a thief manages to get 6+ hours away from the RoB, either alone or with a high level main's help, scents will decay before he can ever be tracked.

As for crowing leads to limited resources leading to conflict... well.. it does but it also leads to everyone looking over their sholder.. if you have 5 neighbours you tend to get into power balances, where if you attack one, the others might destroy you, so you can never managed to attack them. Being more spread out might help this.

With unlimited terrain there is absolutely no reason to have neighbours in fact it is a stupid thing to do as it leads to competition for resources when there is no need to have competition because all resources are endless.

Um.. your complaining about the point that you will have to keep making more maps? ....
...
...
what would be the point of the skill if after a week all the maps were done with only minor additions here and there?
...
shouldn't it keep evolving?
i am unsure how you can even imagine the skill working without having to keep making more maps.

Maps change, villages and people rise and fall, land is terraformed and altered. An endlessly expanding world is IMPOSSIBLE to map.

You cannot survey it all, because you can never tell if the land has been expanded by you hunting for new settlements, or people before you placing the very settlements you're looking for.

So? how is this bad? It means people will keep seeking out new stuff/places. Ie.. keep the gameworld evolving in fresh. This sounds good to me?
As to souless... well this world is randomly generated as well [with only a few things added by hand like some puddles here and there] but it has soul because of all the terraforming players have been doing, i don't seen how thats any different... infact because there is more room i can only see that players have a potentially greater impact.

Well, this is a fundemental disagreement with how I want to play the game compared to you I'm guessing. I like long established villages with histories, I don't want to be hopping from temporary settlement to temporary settlement looking for new resources.

To me, this map has gotten steadily more full, to the point of bursting.. everywhere i go i run into buildings, claims ect.. no where lacks them anymore... It seems nothing like empty. I am unsure why you would want the wilderness to feel "full"... i can barely walk 10feet without running into "something" alive... But i like the idea of a barren land, full of animals, and little villages that bring civilization to it, spaced out.

Couldn't agree more, hence why I talked about quadrupling the map size, and adding extra supergrids on demand, just by the developer, not the player.

[Potjeh]

I respectfully disagree with Pumpkin.

Also, I think all teleportation needs to die. It'd remove a lot of the issues brought up here.

[Pumpkin]

1. If someone is willing to click constantly in one direction pathing around obstacles, THEN walk all the way back to a civilization, THEN steal from a town risking getting caught and murdered and having all that work turn to nothing. That person definitely deserves the security.
2. Teleporting is already a problem, hopefully it'll be addressed eventually. (Unreachable hearthfires in cabins blocked by more cabins.)
3. Isn't that kinda the point of stealth?

I don't think you understand the concept at all.

Thief X, with no stealth, just trespassing and theft, is escorted by a player's main 6 hours into the middle of nowhere. He builds a wall and puts his thief's hearthfire inside.
The main then makes a village close to civilisation, the thief is part of the village.
The thief can now teleport between his hearth, and the village. The thief can never be stopped, because he cannot be tracked for long enough as his scent will decay before you reach him.

1. Not all villages will be hours away from each other, those villages will trade between each other.
2. Not everyone likes conflict. Fact o' life. If people want to play Harvest Moon the MMO, they're welcome to try.
3. They've already said resources will be spaced, making one gigantic town impractical to all but the most hardcore I.E. several months of constant work.
4. Too many people in a limited area? DO NOT WANT. Just take a look at the area around Brodgar.

All of these are subjective and based on speculation, I can't really comment on the first one, as we have no idea. The second one, well maybe they shouldn't be playing this game if they don't like the idea of conflict and the struggle to survive in a hostile environment. Three, once again my point is that there will be no conflict for these spaced resources, something I dislike. Four, quadruple map size. Quadruple.

Cartography part

Then we shouldn't bother exploring the universe since it'll be impossible to ever draw a complete map.
Change happens, another fact o' life. J&L are probably thinking of things to change to screw us all over as we speak.

Some people like settling, some people have a constant sense of wanderlust, and they're some in between. If people settle early then find another place that's better than the place they settles they could:
A. Commence facepalm
B. Move there
C. Send a contigent of players to colonize it
D. Any combination of the above.

Leading to the fragmentation I spoke about, yes.

I find too much familiarity boring, and I'm sure some people do too. Ever explored a world so thoroughly that there's nothing left to find? I searched through almost all of Oblivion's world, and now there's not much reason to play. An endless world doesn't stop people from staying in familiar places.

A fair point, I just don't personally see what's interesting about discovering an endless combination of various terrains, rather than exploring a larger, player-crafted but limited area.

[Potjeh]

The second one, well maybe they shouldn't be playing this game if they don't like the idea of conflict and the struggle to survive in a hostile environment.

Well, maybe you shouldn't be playing this game if you don't like the idea of people playing differently from you. Seriously, you know better than that. There is no one correct way to play H&H. If you want more people to play a certain way, convince them to do so.

[Pumpkin]

Don't get me wrong, I feel that there is without a doubt a place for players who wish to play peacefully, I just don't think you can really escape the darker side of a world set in a make believe Germanic/Eastern European wilderness.

[Blaze]

I don't think you understand the concept at all.

Thief X, with no stealth, just trespassing and theft, is escorted by a player's main 6 hours into the middle of nowhere. He builds a wall and puts his thief's hearthfire inside.
The main then makes a village close to civilisation, the thief is part of the village.
The thief can now teleport between his hearth, and the village. The thief can never be stopped, because he cannot be tracked for long enough as his scent will decay before you reach him.

You kinda missed the part about teleporting being fixed eventually though.

All of these are subjective and based on speculation, I can't really comment on the first one, as we have no idea. The second one, well maybe they shouldn't be playing this game if they don't like the idea of conflict and the struggle to survive in a hostile environment. Three, once again my point is that there will be no conflict for these spaced resources, something I dislike. Four, quadruple map size. Quadruple.

"The fact that there are people that don't like what I like is a problem, those people shouldn't be here."
"I dislike a portion of the game, therefore that portion shouldn't exist despite the possibility that people might or might not want it."
Great, so I can play the map 4x longer than the original before getting bored.

Leading to the fragmentation I spoke about, yes.

If people didn't spread out, then we wouldn't NEED a new world in the first place.

A fair point, I just don't personally see what's interesting about discovering an endless combination of various terrains, rather than exploring a larger, player-crafted but limited area.

Ring of Brodgar Syndrome
1.Limited area
2. Player crafted
3. Boring as HELL.

[Pumpkin]

So why not impliment an endless map once teleporting is fixed? Once there are mounts and boats to cover the -massive- amount of terrain that's going to be generated?


And yes of course a lot of this is personal opinion about how I play the game, and want to see the game being played. I never said it wasn't.

If people didn't spread out, then we wouldn't NEED a new world in the first place.

What. This doesn't even make sense. We're getting a new map to introduce a variety of new features, not because it's overcrowded.