On the new world and features

[Brosephine]

A few hours in now, and here are the conclusions I've come to so far:


Terrain variation
So the base tile is now forest. The wood shortage is now fixed, but the new shortage of grass tiles has created a shortage of other resources: I've been looking for quite a while now, and I've yet to find Flax or any real quantity of sheep, leaving me with no plant fibers or yarn - which means no fishing rod, no bow, and most importantly, no dream catchers.

I imagine few people have thought of it yet, but I also haven't spotted a single silk moth in this time. They were rare enough as it was with grass as the base tile, but now?

Other than this, new variety terrain and assosciated plants and trees is very welcome - it makes the world far more interesting and immersive.

Rivers and swimming
As some people have discovered for us, a 10 meter wide river is apparantly deadly, and many characters will drown in the first 4 meters, within seconds. Clearly, this is insane. Even a child could swim better than this - I sure can, and I'm no athlete IRL.
The addition of more rivers and lakes, however, is very, very welcome. Fishing was a useless skill for 99% of the world, and glassmaking was severely hampered by the fact that you could count the number of beaches on one hand. In this regard, we have a massive improvement.



More to come as I see it.

[Laremere]

Plains have become the best terrain type for settling now. I have luckily found flax, though it's quite a walk from my place, and a horribly long walk from where you spawn. If none shows up anytime soon, I'll tele to RoB and trade seed after my crop produces more.

[Rift]

yea i've found flax. And sheep, and cows, and wheat and onions and tons of stuff.
and all the basics necessary to start up a nice place.
I would say as a "starter" village/location you really need to choose grassland for the cows and sheep that spawn on them as they are rather.. useful.

[Ferinex]

How many of you have ever tried swimming across a body of water that has a current where your feet can't touch bottom? The way it currently is is realistic, so saying it isn't is kind of... wrong.

On the other hand, gameplay should come before realism. I have no idea how this is going to affect the game in the long term so I don't have an opinion one way or the other as to whether it should be changed.

[Solifuge]

First of all, I'd like to thank Jorb and Loftar for their great work on the latest release. I absolutely love the new terrain types, and the feeling of a more diverse world that they create. I would, however, like to second the critique on the new Deep Water system, for these two reasons:

1) It is crippling to gameplay.
Most of the map is made unreachable because swimming is a death-sentence, even for highly experienced players who have been playing for months. Moreover, new or non-combat-oriented players will die immediately, and with no way to tell that they are about to die. The current swimming mechanic is extremely harsh, and as designers you are punishing players for their curiosity and for exploring... and beyond that for not reading the forum. That's vastly unfair, and is a great way to drive off both new and long-term players who have committed many hours to this game.

As a game designer, encouraging stat-grinding, much less -necessitating- it, is a terrible design philosophy. As a relatively new player, the prospect of requiring me to spend months collecting specific ingredients to make specific foods to increase my character's constitution by 90 points before I can cross 4 tiles of water, and get to anywhere aside from the starting area, is almost enough to turn me away from the game. In a reasonable design, even a new player who has spent the points on the Swimming skill should be able to cross the minimum width of river (~4 tiles) one way, when at full Stamina. Threatening permanent death by drowning unless a player has committed weeks upon weeks to the task of raising their Constitution is simply poor game design.

2) It is extremely unrealistic.
Even a person who has never swam before can at minimum flounder in deep water long enough to get back to where they can stand above water level. Moreover, children can cross lakes and rivers with little practice. Carrying a rucksack full of goods while swimming may present challenges, but as a moderately competent swimmer, I've managed to carry small things while swimming, have crossed small lakes, swam against moderate river currents and waves, and so on. A trained swimmer can even rest on the water by floating on their back, and expert swimmers can cross bodies of water as large as the English Channel, swimming continuously for over 13 hours.

To illustrate swimming realism, here is an anecdote: I've witnessed a jet skiing accident while swimming in a large lake, and when one rider was stunned by the collision and fell off of his jet ski, I swam out from the shallows of a lake against reasonably large waves for about 60 meters, along with 4 other people. We helped the stunned man back on to his jet ski, and then swam back into shore for another 60 meters, without stopping. I'm also a rail-thin geek of a guy with very little strength, and I tire easily (I've probably got a H&H Constitution of 20 at most ). The other swimmers were a rather large fellow, and a couple who looked about as fit as I was... none of us were extremely tough body builders or experienced lifeguards... just regular people. Granted, I was exhausted afterward, but if I can do that, I'd suspect mighty Iron Age Germanic Warriors to be able to cross a 4 meter stream with little to no effort.

Suggestion:
My suggestion, for what it is worth, would be to reserve Dangerous Swimming for those who want to swim against raging rapids, or cross a large lake. However, if you are committed to this design choice, you should at minimum provide a game mechanic that will allow "Drowning" players at least a single chance to return to shallow water before their permanent death. I know at least 4 long-term players who have lost most (60-100%) of their progress in this game, which represents 1-3 months of gameplay, in an instant due to the current Permanent Death System and Drowning. I'd hope you would agree that this is vastly unfair to players who have supported your efforts for these months, and that you understand their frustration. Honestly, I think that the issue of drowning itself is not the only problem, but just illustrates the excessively harsh manner with which you address Player Death, but that is another critique for another time.

Here's hoping that this critique is received well, and that it's of value to the design team. Keep up the great work guys, and thanks for all your continued efforts.

[Jackard]

nice post solifuge

[theTrav]

even for highly experienced players who have been playing for months.

with 40 constitution you can cross a river. If you don't have 40 constitution after a month of playing you're playing extremely infrequently or you have an unhealthy diet

The current swimming mechanic is extremely harsh, and as designers you are punishing players for their curiosity and for exploring... and beyond that for not reading the forum.

I agree that it's harsh. It IS mentioned in the swimming skill.

increase my character's constitution by 90 points before I can cross 4 tiles of water

your numbers are incorrect, 40 is sufficient.

get to anywhere aside from the starting area

from looking at the map the starting area has access to more than 1/2 the current map grid. When more area is generated the starting area should have access to it.

Even a person who has never swam before can at minimum flounder in deep water long enough to get back to where they can stand above water level.

This is not true. Australia has mandatory swimming lessons for most children in primary school, but if someone comes from overseas or something and tries to swim accross the murray there's a good chance they'll have serious trouble, possibly kill themselves.

Moreover, children can cross lakes and rivers with little practice.

How big is this lake you're hypothesising about and how old the child? I garantee a 12 year old will have SEVERE difficulty crossing the hume weir.

A trained swimmer can even rest on the water by floating on their back, and expert swimmers can cross bodies of water as large as the English Channel, swimming continuously for over 13 hours.

A trained and expert swimmer would have more than 40 constitution. Swimming is one of the most exhausting and best forms of exercise there is because it uses almost all of the muscles you have.

provide a game mechanic that will allow "Drowning" players at least a single chance to return to shallow water before their permanent death.

That's not an unreasonable suggestion

I think that the issue of drowning itself is not the only problem, but just illustrates the excessively harsh manner with which you address Player Death, but that is another critique for another time.

I suspect this may be a differing of philosophy between you and the devs.


I don't think the current swiming implementation is crazy unrealistic, however I agree that it could be improved and potentially made less harsh... I also want boats

[Frelock]

Trav, a few quick things:

The swimming skill states that you need to "know your limits." How the hell do you expect to find your limits without experimenting? Yes, you can look on the forums at the other poor souls who have died for such experiments, and realize that you probably don't have enough CON to avoid insta-death by just stepping into deep water. Too bad those poor saps didn't have access to such resources. So though "it IS mentioned in the swimming skill," it's not as strong a warning as it could be (you must have 40 CON to ride this ride).

Also, as to the realism of swimming, note that the thinnest rivers are a mere 4 tiles wide. Same width as a cabin. I can't run a half-mile without walking in the middle, and I can still swim a house-length. My sister is a swimming instructor who teaches 6-year-olds to swim across an Olympic-length pool, which again going off of the cabin=house scale, is a bit bigger than the smallest rivers. Even if there's a current, that usually means you'll just end up downstream of where you started, not that you'll be pulled under the minute you lose your feet (and yes, I have swam across rivers before).

As to your note that over half of the map is accessible without swimming, yes that is true. However, you have to take extremely round-about paths to get there if you need to avoid all water in your way.


Possible solutions I see to the swimming problem are as follows:
1) Decreasing the stamina drain so even someone with 10 CON can still go one tile out, look at their stamina bar, realize they'll drown if they go another tile, allowing them to get back and save themselves.

2) Making it so that there is a mandatory 40 CON requirement before you can buy the skill.

3) Introduce a swimming toggle, so those who bought the skill unaware of the consequences don't have to fear getting within a screen's range of deep water and death by lag.

4) Making a semi-deep water stage, which requires swimming to enter, drains stamina like swimming, but doesn't insta-kill when you run out of stamina, allowing you to get back to shore (could be equated to water that's just over your head).

As to opening up the map, most of the solutions have been brought up already:

1) Boats : they'll happen, I just hope soon.

2) Instituting fords into rivers : areas of shallow water at random that can be crossed without fear of drowning. Might be useful for carts too.

3) Floaties : Allow a person lifting a log to float across water with minimal stamina drain.

[niltrias]

Swimming across a wide, calm lake is much easier than a 10-meter wide rushing current. Also, if you want to find your limits, swim parallel to the bank and see how far you go before getting tired.
I like the water, myself.

[Brosephine]

Day 2 (almost), and I'm feeling more and more contempt for the new world right now.


Not enough grassland. I can't stress this enough.

We're a mere 24 hours in, and it seems nearly every spot of grassland has already been claimed. I spent all of yesterday searching for flax, wool and wheat, but the only one I found was wheat, and that was with someone elses' help. (Thank you Leonov, if I recall your name correctly)

Since cows and sheep roam almost exclusively on grassland (and maybe plains, I've heard), the fact that all the grassland is already claimed poses a huge problem as it means I have no access to any of the resources - wool is vital early on as you need it for dreamcatchers, and thus claims.

No wool, no claim. And no bandages either, which isn't good since I've spent the last 24 hours getting molested by foxes and boars every ten minutes.

I can't even find any wheat, in 10+ hours of wandering. Grassland is scarce and often far between with a nice thick layer of mordor forest between each patch, and the chance of a given patch yeilding wheat seems to be quite low. No wheat, no bread.

Currently, I seem able to do nothing but hunt deer and hope I find some useful resources along the way.