The Road Goes Ever On and On

[Yolan]

So, the devs have stated that when they return to H&H development they wish to redesign the game from the foundations.

http://pastebin.com/CyFEabyS

(12:16:35) <loftar> Mind you, Haven needs so much updating on the backend that we're rather considering a rewrite than an update.

They have also said that they do not yet know exactly what it is that they wish to do. What I would like to do here then is make a suggestion for an element of such a redesign. Please note that I'm not claiming this suggestion is entirely original, in fact I'm fairly sure something similar has been stated elsewhere. Still I think it's worth putting it out there as I envision it and chewing it over a bit.



Roads

- Hearth fires are removed. Your character simply remains in game in sleeping form when you are logged off. If you are sleeping in a bed or on a rucksack you can only be harmed if summoned via scent, as per the old hearth fire summoning mechanic, but simply logging off leaves your character still in the game and vulnerable (for how long, and in what way is a matter for debate of course, nobody wants to die because of a phone call).

- Milestones as they exist must be used to connect crossroads. In order to port between locations it is necessary to have an unbroken link. This would mean fords/bridges are nec. A minimum distance could be imposed along with a new gate system to replace porting as a way of entering/leaving your base.

- The speed to port between crossroads is not instant, but a function of distance and mode of transport. For example, traveling by wagon is faster than traveling by foot.

- A highwayman skill enables a new option at a milestone: 'Stand and Deliver'. This will pull people out of fast transport. They cannot resume fast transport for a cool down period, which enables combat to take place, or just simple robbing.


Why?

So distance and location take on a different meaning. If you can only move fast via roads, then roads have a reason to exist. But further more, towns become more than just outposts, they are places that exist on the way to somewhere else. If a settlement wishes to have access to trade goods, they need to be connected to the outside world. Other people might decide to sever this connection, which means that you cannot be indifferent to the political realities of who has power over the surrounding area.

Furthermore, as long as people can commit a crime and then port nearly instantly to the inside of a bwall compound on the other side of the world, real civilization doesn't have a chance. There needs to be a real necessity binding people together geographically, and that necessity is the bounds of time and space. Banditry should ideally be happening to people who are living near the fringes of civilization, where it is possible to hide in the wilderness. Oh yes, and the wilderness could stand to be a bit more wild. In world one we had mordor, with beasts becoming stronger the further away you were from civilization. Roads could become a new radiating point for civilization, with its power to keep the wild at bay dependent on how frequently it is used. Arterial roads are hence pretty much free of bears, etc, meaning that hunters need to go further out and risk running into other unsavory types.


With a basic change like this, you also see the emergence of other interesting possibilities. This would have to be in concert with other fundamental changes to how the game works, but a world with meaningful roads and distance could also be a world in which we see things like...

- actual towns that outsiders can come inside of while on their journeys, without it being a security nightmare
- inns that people stay at
- warehouses where goods are stored before and after transit, or on a leg of transit

and so on...

Please Note: A foundational change like this would need to take place in concert with other changes to how the game works, which is why I'm not quite sure I get where people are coming from with some of their comments. I'm not talking about a situation where everything currently works the way it does now, but with roads. Rather, we start with an idea of what kind of way we would like to see the game work, and proceed from there to provide the supporting mechanics that enable that. Roads as suggested would only be one of those mechanics. I mentioned crossroads and milestones because it helps to visualise what I'm talking about, but they needn't be anything much like the milestones and crossroads that we know now except or even including appearance.


OTHER IDEAS

Hobbit Door - viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30731
Tree Hollow Storage - viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30843

[Arcanist]

no

Also, port to hearth... where do you login if you're not able to login where you logged out?

[LadyV]

It really doesn't solve the issues. One can spam milestones so that no one knows what road goes where or which one is being taken. Milestones can be broken all along a line. Yet it is hardly fair as the road in theory still exists. It only creates more work. Worse yet you get a determined faction to claim huge world chunks to maintain their road system and ensure they have scents to track for anyone trying to tamper with them.

Crossroads and the ability to fast travel is not the enemy. Unlimited amounts of them are. Some factions maintain huge amounts of roads all over the world. In real practice it would be to huge an upkeep to maintain so many. I think that's a more appropriate starting point to fix.

I do agree a new gate system would be nice.

[pablet]

Implement decent combat. Seriously you should be able to defend you from the first moment, at least fight back, and the combat system is weird, doesnt make any sense when compared to irl combat, is boring and not intuitive.

[Yolan]

no

Why?

Also, port to hearth... where do you login if you're not able to login where you logged out?

Fixed. No more hearth fires. At least, not in their current form. The devs have said elsewhere that they would like to move towards a persons character -always- being in the game world. This feature would compliment distance having some meaning.

Implement decent combat. Seriously you should be able to defend you from the first moment, at least fight back, and the combat system is weird, doesnt make any sense when compared to irl combat, is boring and not intuitive.

Sure, but that doesn't directly have much to do with my suggestion.

It really doesn't solve the issues. One can spam milestones so that no one knows what road goes where or which one is being taken. Milestones can be broken all along a line. Yet it is hardly fair as the road in theory still exists. It only creates more work.

Crossroads and the ability to fast travel is not the enemy. Unlimited amounts of them are. Some factions maintain huge amounts of roads all over the world. In real practice it would be to huge an upkeep to maintain so many. I think that's a more appropriate starting point to fix.

I have updated my post to explain where I am coming from here. I am not trying to 'fix' existing issues so much as I am trying to provide a possible piece of a puzzle of what the game might look like in the event that the developers redesign how it looks from the ground up, as they have hinted they are interested in doing in the future.

I maintain that unrestricted fast travel -is- the enemy if we wish to see a different kind of world to the ones we have seen so far. Whether or not you do want to see a radically different kind of world is somewhat a matter of taste/game philosophy I guess.

Worse yet you get a determined faction to claim huge world chunks to maintain their road system and ensure they have scents to track for anyone trying to tamper with them.

That kind of sounds like exactly the kind of thing I would want to see however.

[SuperNoob]

no offense, but your suggestion sucks. I'll break down why:

if people are always in the world even when logged out what stops someone from making an alt army and standing around someone's house? don't say killing all the alts, because they've committed no crimes and shouldn't be able to be killed just because they're there. not only that but if someone commits a crime and has no HF would you then be able to summon them anywhere? how would a criminal stand any chance of escape? as far as that goes if you're village is being raided and you defend it what keeps you alive since you're now leaving scents and can't build a HF?

removing CR from the game is a bad idea. its true they get misused at times, but they serve a very important function. imagine how you'd feel if you had to carry a boat from your house to water and you don't live right on a river(30 minute walk each way), and only had 2 hours to spend online...thats 1/2 of your online time spent just carrying a boat, once you're actually at the river and on your way to hunt/forage/visit a friend you realize its just not worth it.

to sum this up: there comes a point where you have to ask yourself how fun is an idea, if my idea is added to the game will it ruin the game for a lot of people. with your idea its not fun, and it would make this game impossible to play beyond midgame.

[Yolan]

No offense but your reply sucks. For example, you talk about alts, but as I have taken pains to point out, I am talking about a feature that might be part of a foundational redesign of the game. There is no reason for you to assume that any of the other mechanics currently in game would be the same.

EDIT:

if people are always in the world even when logged out what stops someone from making an alt army and standing around someone's house? don't say killing all the alts, because they've committed no crimes and shouldn't be able to be killed just because they're there. not only that but if someone commits a crime and has no HF would you then be able to summon them anywhere? how would a criminal stand any chance of escape? as far as that goes if you're village is being raided and you defend it what keeps you alive since you're now leaving scents and can't build a HF?

I'm not sure, but only a few weeks ago the devs said they were looking into something like this very idea of a character always being in the game. Perhaps they would aim to restrict the number of accounts per IP address? You could also imagine that the character might not have a hit box while logged out, but appears to be sleeping on the ground - however, unlike when sleeping in a bed, the character can be assaulted, etc.

removing CR from the game is a bad idea. its true they get misused at times, but they serve a very important function. imagine how you'd feel if you had to carry a boat from your house to water and you don't live right on a river(30 minute walk each way), and only had 2 hours to spend online...thats 1/2 of your online time spent just carrying a boat, once you're actually at the river and on your way to hunt/forage/visit a friend you realize its just not worth it.

But I'm not suggesting CR's are removed, only that they are connected via roads. What is to stop you making a road to the river? Also,
at current, rivers are very important. If you can't boat, you can't forage, can't hunt, can't really do much of anything. With road networks criss crossing the land that anybody can use this might well not be the case however.

[LadyV]

Yolan without delving into all the changes to the foundation your implying we have to take your presentation as is. Since the forum suggestion guidelines discourage multiple topics this places the burden of each change idea upon you.

People will address your suggestions as you have presented them. Please do not use a defence of greater changes to the game. Address each issue as it is. Unless we know exactly how you would like these implemented in the WHOLE system we can not respond properly.

Be more specific if you want a more robust discussion.

[borka]

Yolan your post has a huge flaw: it doesn't state the date of the pastebin chat...

[Potjeh]

I for one have always been for replacing teleportation with road-based travel. Irrelevance of topography has always been at the root of the game's major issues.