[Design] Anti-Grief Discussion

[Peter]

As this game is still early in development, now is the perfect time to come up with a strong system to avoid the problem of griefers. While it is true that griefing is not as severe now as it may become, it is likely that an effective solution would require some kind of deep integration into the game, and would be impractical to add later. Consider a foundation; when you dig the foundation, you don't need it because there's no house on top of it; when you need the foundation, it's too late to add it, because there's a house in the way.

On to the matter at hand; we must first define what a anti-grief system should do. There are several options here; it could be that it identifies griefers, then warns, kicks, and bans them. It could be a purely democratic system that allows players to identify griefers and vote them out of the game. Or it could be a codeless solution, such as appointed moderators with god powers.

What needs to be considered at all times is: will this solution be worse than otherwise? Consider an automatic system; if it is wrong or poorly identifies griefers, then pretty quickly player will get fed up with getting warnings when all they did is cut down a tree in the wilderness. Even a democracy system could be exploited by a gang that goes around mob-accusing individuals before anyone else can vote.

So, let's work out a good way to do whatever a Anti-Griefer should do.

[Adam-]

First things first, griefing is a part of the game. This is not the "home" server on wurm. Players can do whatever they want, whenever they want except hack. At bottleneck we had all of our steel stolen, but nothing happened of it. If you want to stop griefing, deed your area, if that doesn't work, build a fire wall.

[shockedfrog]

The devs have said they don't particularly want to be banning anyone. If something is not meant to be done, then the code, the game system, will be improved so it doesn't allow it to be done. In the unfortunate event that the devs come across a problem that cannot be solved through code (perhaps because the coded solution would have unacceptable side effects) then I would expect rules to be clearly defined, and for players to be given the ability to report rule breakers in-game, and for staff to have the full power to clean up the mess caused by those who break those rules.

BTW, the use of the word 'griefer' here is likely to lead to some confusion - a number of definitions have been thrown around recently, some truly believed and some sarcastic, but none of them can really be considered 'right'. Peter, could you give us your definition of 'griefer', not for the purpose of its use in general, but simply for how people should read it when it's used in this topic?

[Peter]

That is exactly my point, shockedfrog, exactly my point. What is a griefer? How can we define it?
The sense that I am most likely to use is "someone who niether plays to win or to make others loose, but merely to make the game less fun for others." This means that killing a bear or even stealing something from annother settlement is not griefing, as it's part of regular gameplay, while permakilling a new player or claiming a town mine is, because they gain nothing out of these actions other than watching other players suffer. Listing all the possible ways for a griefer to cause trouble is, of course, counter-productive, but the basic point is that a griefer is not a better player or even a good player, they are simply not playing the game at all.

Let me note that I have not personally been the target of grief, but I realize that this game is especially susceptible to it.

[sami1337]

Griefing would be making a persons life hard by using exploits. Like claiming a mine with a heart fire inside.

[Jfloyd]

Griefing would be making a persons life hard by using exploits. Like claiming a mine with a heart fire inside.

I like how everyone points out my predicament.

[shockedfrog]

I personally like Peter's definition of griefing. However, there are various situations where something is reasonable to do, and yet the amount to which it ends up spoiling the game for others is far greater than what it adds to the game. This is a subjective thing, though - something which one person may laugh off as a setback, a challenge, a 'good move' by an opponent, another will consider it to be a total game-wrecker. Sami's definition is quite vague, to me - what exactly counts as an exploit, and at what point does someone's life become hard? Some consider the mere use of unintended features in any form to be exploiting, while others believe they have to be used in a way that provides a certain advantage over those who don't use them. Some consider certain advantages to be ok, while others aren't. Some don't really care, because at the moment exploiting is not actively discouraged (in fact, perhaps the opposite), and some people will just use whichever definition suits them best at any particular time.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily counter-productive to list potential methods of griefing (or non-griefing actions with the potential to spoil the game) for the purpose of discussing how to deal with each one. Any professional troublemaker is capable of figuring out how to do it themself, and the potential impact griefers can have may be lessened if the potential victims are prepared. I think it also makes things a bit easier for the devs if potential weaknesses in the system are spotted in advance, so they can block them now rather than having to do so in the future when they would rather be adding important stuff like village controls or new creatures or hidden Pong game easter eggs. It's basically the old obscurity vs transparency debate.

[Manbearpig]

Lol.. if you can do something it should be allowed. except ofcourse for third party cheating etc.
To stop greifing such as claims over mines with heart fires inside or whatever you are having problems with; Game mechanics. being able to remove your heart fire and spawn at the stone ring should be an option btw!

[Jfloyd]

Lol.. if you can do something it should be allowed. except ofcourse for third party cheating etc.
To stop greifing such as claims over mines with heart fires inside or whatever you are having problems with; Game mechanics. being able to remove your heart fire and spawn at the stone ring should be an option btw!

Well, that would be nice, but I also had to forfeit a lot of items to leave my home.

[Manbearpig]

Well, that would be nice, but I also had to forfeit a lot of items to leave my home.

Excuse me, but, wtf are you talking about?

If someone claimed your land or something you're the fool for not already owning it yourself.