Cheese's reliance on Wood over Curd

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Cheese's reliance on Wood over Curd

Postby Dataslycer » Sat May 22, 2010 3:10 am

Summary:
Cheese is one of the best, if not the best, way of gaining severeal FEP attributes often having one cheese granting you an instant stat raise. This is somewhat off-set by the fact that you need several different things from different field as ingrediants.

First one needs to raise cows. However it is not just enough to raise them, you need a bull to get a cow pregnant and give birth to a calf in order to gain one of the ingredient, Milk. Cows are notoriously gluttonous during these moments and will eat many times the normal amount. A player either needs a good amoun of surplus or a constant stream of seeds, carrots, and pumpkin flesh to feed the enormous appetite of a mother cow.

The other ingredient is Rennet which it is also composed of two ingredients. The first is vinegar which is obtained by letting grape juice from a wine press into a barrel age until it becomes wine. The wine ages until it becomes vinegar, the duration of the aging process is somewhat long but once you made vinegar, you will use very little at a time. The other ingredient is intestine obtained by killing and butchering foxes, boars, deers, and bears. Albeit one must either be a clever shooter or a good fighter to obtain them. After they are both obtained, a cauldron is used to mix the two items into rennet in a clay jar.

Rennet and milk is dumped into curding tub to make curd and placed into cheese trays and place ontop of cheeese racks and let them age into cheese.

Problem:

Each time the item in the cheese tray changes, the quality becomes the average of the cheese tray and and the previous item. For example if I produce cheese from a q100 cheese tray with q20 curd inside, then I will get q60 cheese. The problem is that the averaging occurs each time the cheese changes. If I were to make a stage 2 cheese from that same tray (without slicing yet), it will take the average of the q100 tray and the q60 cheese that is still inside for a q80 cheese, a 3rd stage cheese would be q90 and a 4th stage cheese would be 95. Essentially you can the most disgusting q1 curd with an awesome cheese tray and still get quality cheese at higher stage. I've composed a small table of the significant of the curd and the tray.

Tray to Curd significance percentage

Stage 1 Cheese- 50/50
Stage 2 Cheese- 75/25
Stage 3 Cheese 87.5/12.5
Stage 4 Cheese 93.75/6.25

I also composed an excel spreadsheet to show the significant of the wood to the best cheese. Both sheet has q90 tray but one has q90 curd and the other has q10 curd. Now let's compare the difference.

ImageImage

Take a look at Midnight Blue Cheese or Sunlight Stilton. The amount of attribute you get from a q10 curd and a q90 curd is only a 9 point difference.

In summary, the better cheese you are making, the less significant the quality of the curd is. This means we slaving away at the field for extra seed, feeding the cows, risking our health to fight animals when all of that has a very little significance in the quality of the best cheese.

Furthermore high quality wood is already powerful enough that it is relied on by several liftable structures that affect the quality of many things they process: wine press, barrel (for wine/vinegar), meat grinder, sword, and especially herbalist table which lets you create even better trees for wood. The last thing we need is an end game cheese to rely on wood too much.

Solution:

I proposed a linear scaling of the importance for wood and curd. The early stage cheese should rely more on wood than on curd as wood is easier to raise the quality of wood initially for most beginners whom would mostly have q10 cows/milk. As time pass the quality of the cow will become better which would make better stage 3-4 cheese as it rely less in wood and more on curd. Here is the scaling I propose.

Tray to Curd significance percentage

Stage 1 Cheese- 65/35
Stage 2 Cheese- 55/45
Stage 3 Cheese 45/55
Stage 4 Cheese 35/65

The shifting of of the significance is relatively small as you will still need both strong curd and strong tray. Again this is not set in stone and admittedly not one of my best solutions. I feel free to suggest something or refute my solution if you have a better one and for reasons.
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Re: Cheese's reliance on Wood over Curd

Postby Sever » Sat May 22, 2010 3:47 am

"Metal has it's uses. But wood... now there's a real material."

Forget the stone and iron ages, Haven & Hearth is all about the forest. So many things rely on tree quality. I don't know why, but it seems rather intentional.
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Re: Cheese's reliance on Wood over Curd

Postby theTrav » Sat May 22, 2010 4:41 am

Great post, hope the devs pay attention to it
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Re: Cheese's reliance on Wood over Curd

Postby sabinati » Sat May 22, 2010 4:41 am

well high q wood has plenty of other uses... and as his spreadsheets show curd q has very little importance in cheese. i agree in the general idea that it should matter more.
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Re: Cheese's reliance on Wood over Curd

Postby ImpalerWrG » Sat May 22, 2010 5:42 am

I did some similar math on metal quality and how it's derived from kiln/brick/forge/charcoal and found that metal quality is approximately 2/3rds the clay quality and 1/3 the wood quality (after the production of all facilities). This creates an environment ware camping the few good natural resources trump everything else. At the very least we need player skills like mason, smelting and cheese making which will enter into these formulas and take some of the load off raw material quality.

I personally find the quality system is applied in an almost dogmatic way to things that are not remotely appropriate for it, like wood quality determining charcoal quality and then charcoal determining the quality of things it is used to heat. Seriously charcoal even having a quality level is absurd, at most you might say it's how 'pure' or 'dense' is about the only conceivable difference, but even that can't reasonably determine quality, only how long it burns for.

When I buy a bag of cheap charcoal to grill hot-dogs on, the hot-dogs are not doomed to taste terrible as a result, rather I have to wait longer to get the coals lit and then they don't burn as long. These are more inconveniences and delays then they are un-avoidable detriments to the final products quality, I should be able to compensate in some reasonable way like simply needing more material, waiting longer for completion or using more stamina.
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Re: Cheese's reliance on Wood over Curd

Postby theTrav » Sat May 22, 2010 5:50 am

ImpalerWrG wrote:When I buy a bag of cheap charcoal to grill hot-dogs on, the hot-dogs are not doomed to taste terrible as a result, rather I have to wait longer to get the coals lit and then they don't burn as long. These are more inconveniences and delays then they are un-avoidable detriments to the final products quality, I should be able to compensate in some reasonable way like simply needing more material, waiting longer for completion or using more stamina.


Interesting take, do the cheap charcoals burn at a different temperature do you suppose?

The current tech tree is all about clay + water + soil. it would be nice to see something with more bottom level resources, and I think that's what the devs want too, but it's a LOT of content
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Re: Cheese's reliance on Wood over Curd

Postby Lothaudus » Sat May 22, 2010 7:49 am

Making Milk Q the biggest factor in Cheese would go a LONG way towards stopping all these high STR wall-breaking peeps wandering about and also make raising the stats on Cows actually useful (and of course killing people's Cows would become a bigger factor).
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Re: Cheese's reliance on Wood over Curd

Postby Dataslycer » Sat May 22, 2010 7:57 am

Lothaudus wrote:Making Milk Q the biggest factor in Cheese would go a LONG way towards stopping all these high STR wall-breaking peeps wandering about and also make raising the stats on Cows actually useful (and of course killing people's Cows would become a bigger factor).


I wasn't really going over the resolution of the power-gaming aspect, mostly over the uneven distribution of the aspect of cheese-making. I think the FEP factor of the food would be presented in another topic but that is going to be a while to tackle.
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Re: Cheese's reliance on Wood over Curd

Postby Gauteamus » Mon May 24, 2010 6:28 pm

How about simply changing the weights on the averaging formula?

New_Cheese_Q = (3 * Old_Cheese_Q + Tray_Q) / 4

or maybe even this is enough:
New_Cheese_Q = (2 * Old_Cheese_Q + Tray_Q) / 3
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Re: Cheese's reliance on Wood over Curd

Postby DeadlyPencil » Mon May 24, 2010 6:53 pm

Gauteamus wrote:How about simply changing the weights on the averaging formula?

New_Cheese_Q = (3 * Old_Cheese_Q + Tray_Q) / 4

or maybe even this is enough:
New_Cheese_Q = (2 * Old_Cheese_Q + Tray_Q) / 3


^ this is much better. i dont know why people always suggest totally random numbers in their suggestions. its like they think the developers like hard coding random values into their programs. they most likely have preset functions already that taken in the arguments, so there is no point in trying to make something "new" when u can just use an old formula.
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