An idea for money

[Potjeh]

Cash shop is the last option, because those always wreck all semblance of balance (disposable RL cash is, sadly, distributed in a very unbalanced fashion). I'm sure that donation drives could raise enough cash for server costs, and if the devs decide they want to cash in on their hard work they should just turn it into a subscription game.

[Repercussionist]

How do you mean? Kids paying money to level up their characters? Money that will be used to ultimately make the game better?

What I mean is people will get upset that people can pay their way through the game instead of putting in the time that others have to develop their character. Plus, money isn't much of a factor in a game prospering. You said something about better equipment? If you've published a game like this, you have the equipment you need. Unless you're suggesting they get a movie-style art input machine?

I agree, but I want to see this game become even better, and sadly that's not going to happen on donations alone.

Already addressed. Money doesn't lead to a "better" game, it leads to a "fancier" game.

They are still great MMOs to play.

Many of them are not still great MMOs because having the pay-to-level idea makes it almost impossible to survive unless you're putting money into it. Let's say it takes you "x" hours to get Yeomanry without paying, but this other guy, who has plenty of money to blow, can just make a deposit and Bam! He has all of the skills needed to enter your plot and steal and cause havoc before you can even start building defenses against it.

I think you're more angry at the community that plays it rather than the game itself.

MMO communities tend to start out with peaceful individuals eagerly waiting for the game's official release. Once word gets out that you can come join the game today and have a better character tomorrow than the guys who have been playing since the beginning, people who have money are going to come. They are going to use their wealth to level up and once they see that they can kill veteran players easily, they are going to get cocky. Cockiness in game leads to trolling in the forums, and the vets are already upset that these spoiled brats came in and took their glory because their mom is a high-priced hooker, they really don't want to put up with their nonsense on the forums. Everyone gets tense and flame wars fill the forums. One cocky rich kid calling out another one. I'm not saying I hate the community. Dumb asses are going to happen, but if the devs keep it fair by not allowing over-powering by cash, it tends to happen less.

If they did get to the point to where they really NEEDED money from the game, they should make a small fee for all players or do benefits that won't over-power one people (such as non-trade-able cosmetic items like capes, hats, or paint for your house). Of course, the prior option would make me sad, because I really can't afford to play an MMO, even if it is a great as H n H.

Sorry for the obscurities in my first post.

[Thurrok]

Alright, let's make a cash shop where everyone can buy q1 tin coins for RL money, A.K.A. Totally Fucking Useless

Meh, not really. Actually, this has been discussed 9001 times... nothing ever changes, but maybe pushing JLo here and there might change their minds. Donation drive is the only option I would want to see implemented though. Cash shops are game-breakingly unbalancing and (to me) signalize greed instead of dedication. Donor capes (or some other items, doesn't have to be capes) without any stat bonus are another thing though.

Another thing is that from what I know, money is _NOT_ the main problem with HnH development. Loftar just needs more time/motivation/personal capacities to adress the code problems. Stuffing him with money might enable him to move to/buy a new server, but it would still run the old, buggy, 32-bit HnH server software that has a tendency to crash and cause headaches to its 897 addicts. I'm also guessing that moving to better software would require (at least one) world reset, which is an outright evil thing to wait for.

At Least That's What I Know. Feel free to flame me if you know better.

[Danno]

The community here is pretty nice, but as soon as you make paying for stats a possibility, then you're going to attract all of the little immature kids who think they are better than other players because they can use mommy and daddy's credit card to level up.

I agree, but I want to see this game become even better, and sadly that's not going to happen on donations alone.

Even if the game got better, the community would get worse, and the community is a very important aspect of this game (or at least it ought to be).

I've seen it happen to waaaay too many good MMOs.

They are still great MMOs to play. I think you're more angry at the community that plays it rather than the game itself.

I think you're mistaken, good sir. I played Maple Story up to level 55 or so. It would take me 10 hours of straight grinding to get one level up, which would get me those few attribute points and the three skill points, which hardly affect your character (you won't really notice a difference until you upgrade the skill 10 times). Then I could go back to the horrid grind for that level up to make my character strong enough to grind in a new area for a few weeks.

I heard the experience requirements were much smaller in the original DFO, but they were raised greatly for North America. Why? Because the more people have to grind, the more reason they'd have to buy upgrades; it lessens the grind. Also, competitive aspects such as PvP are ruined when little Timmy can use his daddy's credit card to turn his character into an unbeatable god. Anyhow, Nexon ruins its games by beefing up the grind to make players fork over cash to make the game less miserable. Doing the same dungeon up to 5 times with increased difficulties or dungeon-altering quests might be fun, but doing the same place 50 times or more gets really old.

Gaia Online is another fine example. The donations apparently started innocently enough with no incentive, then a reward was given later to the donators. They decided to have a monthly donation item, and eventually it turned into completely whoring the site out. Sponsors left and right that give you a cheap item to watch a commercial, all the desirable items being sold in the cash shop, rich kids seeming to quite possibly spend even up to $100 or more every month on the game. In seconds they could attain what only oldbies and dedicated users spent months or even years on. Their forum has constant complaints from whiney users who dislike that all the good items are in the cash shop or available in the market for hundreds of thousands of gold. With that comes all the elitism, trolling, etc. Repercussionist mentioned.


Haven & Hearth is kinda borderline with the grinding as is. There is a ton of repetition, but you can play it by just playing it - explore when you want to, hunt when you want to, etc. Making non-donators grind immensely to bring themselves up to the level of being at a donator's mercy (from being so insignificant they could wipe your entire village out by sneezing) would be too much.

[loftar]

Haven & Hearth is kinda borderline with the grinding as is. There is a ton of repetition, but you can play it by just playing it - explore when you want to, hunt when you want to, etc.

Just for the sake of discussion, what are those repetitions that bother you, and in what way do you think they should be improved? I can certainly see a case being made with farming, among many other things. Just wondering what they are for you.

Depending, of course, on what you mean more exactly by "grinding", I do (currently) believe that grinding is not necessarily something that should be avoided completely, but rather that there is a balance to strike. That balance can be rather hard to find, but some level of grinding is precisely what gives that feeling of accomplishment after having built something (or after having reached some skill level, or after having killed one's first bear, or after having traveled to Constantinople from your own little corner of the map for the first time, or whatever), which is probably one of the main reasons why building games are fun. Take it away, and you risk turning a game into ProgressQuest. Of course, too much of it, on the contrary, just makes the game pointless and boring.

Do feel open to persuade me otherwise, though.

[ciroth]

If you guys have t-shirt designs that are interesting and can be worn as casual without it declaring you are a complete nerd/anti-social geek... i would consider buying one =P

[loftar]

If you guys have t-shirt designs that are interesting and can be worn as casual without it declaring you are a complete nerd/anti-social geek... i would consider buying one =P

How about "My other shirt is a Merchant's Robe"? (Jorb's idea, not mine)

[theTrav]

Depending, of course, on what you mean more exactly by "grinding", I do (currently) believe that grinding is not necessarily something that should be avoided completely, but rather that there is a balance to strike. That balance can be rather hard to find, but some level of grinding is precisely what gives that feeling of accomplishment after having built something (or after having reached some skill level, or after having killed one's first bear, or after having traveled to Constantinople from your own little corner of the map for the first time, or whatever), which is probably one of the main reasons why building games are fun. Take it away, and you risk turning a game into ProgressQuest. Of course, too much of it, on the contrary, just makes the game pointless and boring.

Do feel open to persuade me otherwise, though.

A feeling of accomplishment can be achieved without grinding.

Solving a hard puzzle, beating a difficult skill challenge, coordinating many people.
Most of those involve actual skills and ability rather than simply repeating a process many times.

That is an argument against grinding being "necessary" however it's pretty easy to understand that the above scenarios are hard to pull off in a game like HnH.

[loftar]

A feeling of accomplishment can be achieved without grinding.

Solving a hard puzzle, beating a difficult skill challenge, coordinating many people.

Certainly, that is true, and to the largest extent possible, that's certainly how I'd like Haven to be. I would very much like to redo the crafting system, for example, to involve some kind of player skill (and/or expending resources (other than items) gathered in various ways; I would imagine something related to character psychology) rather than being the one-click process that it is now.

I don't really think one excludes the other, though. I do think that the accumulation of skill values and the replanting of fields to achieve higher crop qualities are the kinds of grinds that are somehow fun, for example. That's not to say that the actual process of e.g. harvesting and planting or the gathering of LPs couldn't be improved, however.

[Repercussionist]

I think you guys have done a pretty good job at reaching that balance. It's not like you have to kill the same monster 1000000 times to reach the next level, there are many different options you can take to reach your next milestone (a skill, an attribute point). You could choose to make it boring, say, by standing in one place and digging your life away, or you could just naturally build your little settlement and reap LP from just building what you need at the moment. Almost anything you do gets you LP, making leveling up surprisingly entertaining.

As far as the harvesting of crops, yeah, it's tedious when you have large fields, but you can always get some other people in your village to help out (if you have one). It's not really as bad as you make it seem, either. We don't want it to end up being one left click that says "Harvest all Hemp" or something.

Believe me, I'm a huge hater of grinding, but Haven makes it insanely easy to level up without losing interest. Just turn on some good music, chat with a friend, and build that new house you've been needing.