Fencing

[DigDog]

[interesting post about fencing]

I get the point you're making and I have to admit that I've never fenced myself (or did any melee combat for that matter) so I'm only using common sense and knowledge of physics here. Anyway, I think what you're describing wouldn't really be parrying then, most of it would still be dodging. I define parrying as stopping your opponents weapon with your own weapon, be it by pushing it to make it miss you or bluntly just stopping it with your blade. It's partly possible by involving the part of the weapon right above the handle (whatever it's called) but that only works with some enemy weapons. You will never stop a big axe that way, for example. And I kind of doubt that it would work against a heavy two-handed weapon either.

But we're really digressing here

So to stay on topic: Fencing isn't really appropriate when you look at the variety of weapons we have in this game. We'd need a different combat system for that, namely one that takes your and your enemy's weapon into account. So no to fencing, but fencing weapons aren't totally out of question. Like we already mentioned, they could give bonuses to dodging or something. Even though that doesn't really make sense, since the weapon isn't making you faster. Heavy swords and axes should rather lower your dodging ability while foils and the like have no negative effects.

ps/ergo: don't you mean mass instead of weight. although weight helps if you swing your axe downwards.

Heh, I guess I do. Don't blame me, I'm foreign.

[Zirikana]

But we're really digressing here

Amen brutha', amen.

Does this make any sense? :

Any fighter, with a new rapier-like style of sword and the fencing skill, can use a powerful new "lunge" move to attack, and for defense they could have a new "parry" mode, they way block and dodge are now, that would stand a chance to mitigate or cancel out any damage from any weapon, but it would work particularly well against the lunge attack from another rapier. In other words:

* lunge move requires BOTH the skill and a rapier equipped
* parry only requires the skill, but is much more effective with the rapier equipped
* "F" = has fencing skill, "NF" = doesn't have fencing skill

then, all other things being equal (armor, sword quality, stats):

lunge vs. F w/ parry move "on" and rapier equipped is a toss-up
lunge vs. F w/ parry but no rapier has an advantage
lunge vs. F w/o parry (with or without rapier) is strong
lunge vs. NF is VERY strong

NF attacking vs. F w/o rapier is slightly weak
NF attacking vs. F w/ rapier is slightly strong
NF attacking vs. NF w/ rapier is very strong

I'd say that having the skill, but not using the special sword, should give you only a very moderate improvement in combat. As if you had the skills for finer swordsmanship, but you can't have the same finesse and use those techniques with a big bronze broadsword as you could with a good rapier. Conversely, using the special sword, but not having the skill learned, should make you a terrible fighter, since what good is a light little sword against a big fat broadsword if you don't know how to use it? And for the sake of realism, we can just imagine that the "parry" function would include all sorts of shuckin' and jivin' and bobbin' and weavin', not just sword to sword contact.

[Potjeh]

hey, a well trained fencer with a light-weight epee or rapier could easily get around heavy armor, sticking the point between the plates, between the breastplate and gorget, or the stomach plates and girdle, or at the seam of the pauldrons. God help the poor bastard if he misses on the first lunge though. . .

Please point out where you could slip a rapier between plates on this armour:

Because I just don't see it happening unless the armoured guy is standing perfectly still and letting you take your time to slide it in.

[DigDog]

You're right, you can't slip a rapier between the plates on that armor. Maybe into the helmet, but that's it.

There's one flaw in your reasoning though: That armor isn't ingame. The ingame armor is more something like that:



By the Power of Grayskull!

[Zirikana]

By the Power of Grayskull!

hell yeah, i had that thing when i was a kid!!!! I beat the hell out of that guy

Please point out...

Choose whichever response from me you like:
A) Well in action, anyone fighting in armor like that would be blah blah blah... A sharp thrust with a yadda yadda yadda...... ,

B) Anyone actually fighting in armor that gorgeous and getting it all dinged up and bloody DESERVES to get stabbed by their own squire after the battle . . . ,

or

C) Lol, you're totally right dude. Sweet picture

I like (C). I'm going with that

[Onionfighter]

Please point out where you could slip a rapier between plates on this armour:

Because I just don't see it happening unless the armoured guy is standing perfectly still and letting you take your time to slide it in.

I see chain mail in the crotch and right armpit. That could be pierced.

Seriously, though, a well trained person in armor with a heavier sword has a serious advantage an equally skilled person wearing none or light protection with a thin-bladed dueling weapon. Really, fencing just isn't the best option for all-melee battles.

[Irish_Pride]

Thanks for all your comments, guys.
I'm surprised this suggestion has got this far.
I didn't say any real details, mainly because on my other suggestions, people say to keep it less descriptive, 'cuz the devs do that stuff.
But anyway. I'm a part fencer irl. My weapon of choice is the sabre.

[saltmummy626]

hey, a well trained fencer with a light-weight epee or rapier could easily get around heavy armor, sticking the point between the plates, between the breastplate and gorget, or the stomach plates and girdle, or at the seam of the pauldrons. God help the poor bastard if he misses on the first lunge though. . .

Please point out where you could slip a rapier between plates on this armour:

Because I just don't see it happening unless the armoured guy is standing perfectly still and letting you take your time to slide it in.

Being a partially trained fencer, I can tell you that a rapier is a flexible and decent weapon. slipping a rapier between the plates in the armor is hard from the front but not impossable. what you really have to worry about is: 1. being fast and precise, 2. most likely not having your weapon after killing or just injuring your enemy, and 3. getting hit.

An armored foe equipped with a suit like the one pictured has many factors to watch out for. the armor slows them down, it restricts some movement and vision, and the armor does not provide the same coverage from behind. a fast and dexterous fencer can easily get though many of the places you mentioned (you'd have to be almost Drizzt stats) or even get behind him and deal alot of crippling hits to the back of the legs. the worst open places in the armor are the armpits and the back of the legs. but the fencer cannot armor himself as heavily and getting hit would almost certainly kill him. even a good punch with a mailed or even bare fist would stagger them a little. there is also the bit about the plates clamping together or the blade getting stuck. this not only opens up the fencer for any number of attacks, but almost certainly means he will lose his blade to breakage. your best chance against and armored target is to sheath that rapier, creep up behind the guy with a nice sharp dagger, and jam that fucker into the base of his spine between the breast plate and tasset or as you say, the breat plate and gorget. in this case you just have to get through that chain mail.

This isn't a bad idea. in fact fencing would be a nice new way to fight. plus, do any of us in game actually wear a full suit of heavy plate mail? It could be a dexterity/agility based fight style. Most of the tactics and attacks for fencing would also be fairly low cost in IP too. as for parrying, correct me if im wrong, but you can parry with weapons other than a flimsy fencing blade yes?

And finally for those of you interested, (which you prolly arent) I say "partially trained" because I never finished my classes. about 3/4ths of the way through them I got interested in other activities (computers and girls) and stopped going. pissed my parents off cuz the classes cost them a good 50$. Anyway, I never forgot the lessons, it hasn't really been a useful skill for me but its nice to know things. I also was never very good at it as well. too fat, too slow, and you've got to have an attaintion span greater than 11 seconds.

[Potjeh]

Armour doesn't slow you down nearly as much as you seem to think. Knights could do cartwheel, handstands and stuff like that in full armour. Dancing circles around one is just not realistic. As for slipping a blade through plates on a person that's trying to stop you from doing that, I'd say you have about as much of a chance of that as you'd have of taking out an Abrams with an M16.

[saltmummy626]

Armour doesn't slow you down nearly as much as you seem to think. Knights could do cartwheel, handstands and stuff like that in full armour. Dancing circles around one is just not realistic. As for slipping a blade through plates on a person that's trying to stop you from doing that, I'd say you have about as much of a chance of that as you'd have of taking out an Abrams with an M16.

Have you ever heard of the SCA?
http://www.sca.org/
The armor they wear isn't as heavy as the metal stuff (my dads suit is made from a cut up old pickle barrel and several pieces of modified foot ball equipment) but you can ask them, they definitely cant do a handstand. maybe a cartwheel (if they are my stepbrothers uncle) but the armor is still just as stifling and difficult to move in as the real deal. a little more flexable but not by much. and some people really do wear the real equipment. The complaints you'll hear the most are; my chain mail is heavy (after a long day of wearing it), my armor is too hot (they've got people running around giving water to the "fighters" to counter it) and also about how some guy would not take a shot even when they hit them as hard as they could on their unarmored ass. (those bruisers are nasty)

true you cant dance circles around a knight. that's why I said you'd have to be Drizzt stats. your right though, a fencing blade is extremely impractical against a heavily armored foe, but still most hearthlings aren't heavily armored and those who are aren't completely armored.