i need to see wich guy i have infron of me.

[loftar]

I also believe in facial recognition, so to speak. What I'd like to do is extend the Kin system so that it can keep track of other players in such a way that you'd be able to recognize them if you've seen them before (maybe through a "remember" option on the RMB-menu on players), but that would just add a "???" entry into your kin screen. You'd be able to give that entry a nick-name and maybe keep notes about him, and you'd be able to be pointed to that same entry the next time you see that player. Doing the mutual kin agreement would make both players actually share their real names.

I would also very much, somehow, like to do it so that you can assign very simple tags (say, colors) to people on the kin list, and that that tag would show by the player in the game view. On the other hand, I really don't want to sully the game view with these kinds of UI elements. I think it would detract very much from the immersion of the game. I do not currently know how to unite these two wishes of mine. Please do not suggest "make it a toggable mode, like viewing claims or authority", because I think that would just combine the worst aspects of both worlds.

[theTrav]

I do not currently know how to unite these two wishes of mine.

The only way to really avoid abstract indicator style ui elements and still have reasonable recognition that approaches real life ability is to actually have people's characters and faces differentiable in game.
Given the number of pixels you have to work with that would be pretty challenging.

Maybe procedurally generate the in game representations and have things like, varying heights, varying colors, psuedo random defects (moles, scars, birth marks) procedurally generated hair that has properties specific to each player. Different body part proportions.

You could go a step further and have the portrait view from the party list be present on the chat dialog (to represent looking closer at someone's face) and have a more detailed representation of the face there (possibly one of those 3d portrait jigamies).

To do that though you're going to be sending more data and making the renderer more complicated. It's a pretty non-trivial thing.

[loftar]

Maybe procedurally generate the in game representations and have things like, varying heights, varying colors, psuedo random defects (moles, scars, birth marks) procedurally generated hair that has properties specific to each player. Different body part proportions.

While it would be really neat, the main problem is, really, that all clothes need to be perfectly adapted to the player model. In practical effect, the number of sprites that Jorb needs to draw scales as O(n·m), n being the number of clothes and m being the number of player shape variants, and Jorb would faint at the mere thought of adding additional player variants (we use to joke about it internally, being the absurdest thing we could do). It is currently the, by far, worst scaling aspect of further game development.

What would be really nice is make the game 3D for real. I, for one, would quite like to do that -- in many aspects, it wouldn't be too hard, as long as we keep the same camera perspective (though it would suddenly be possible to rotate the camera). I have considered the idea many times, and there is very little on the server that would need to change to accomodate it and sending parametrizable player proportions would probably require less bandwidth than the current system of player drawing; and it would have many advantages, like not having to adapt clothes manually to every single body position, or being amazingly cool. The only real thing preventing it is, of course, that none of us can do 3D models. Jorb has considered learning 3D modelling, but obviously, it would take quite large amounts of time for him to reach a level of reasonable proficiency, not to mention the time required to remake all current game objects. I haven't been doing any 3D rendering either, but I imagine I could learn in far less time than it would take Jorb to do the models. :)

[jorb]

What Loftar said, basically.

[Peter]

Of course, it would be possible to get something of the best of both worlds (the efficiency of 3D art and already-existing-ness of 2D) by creating the 3D content and rendering the 2D from this.

Of course, you still need someone who's good at 3D work, but luckily they don't have to be Legendary 3Dsmiths, because your art's only going to be seen from a few angles and you get a final check-up at all the art to fix any imperfections.

[VoodooDog]

no 3d please
NOTHING in 3d

[ArPharazon]

Aw, but jorb's 2D art is pretty! Hell, I'd say, disregarding the 3D-engine related animation and detail benefits, H&H looks better than Warcraft III (off-the-top-of-my-head cartoonish looking isometric perspective game example). And the WC3 art team sunk a lot of man hours in it, didn't they?

I think it would be immensely helpful if we had more clothes. Just throwaway, purely cosmetic, cheap stuff, maybe 5-15 shirts and pants associated with various occupation groups (or hell even good old palette swapping for linen pants would rock). I love the idea of encouraging graphical recognition- it instantly gives you all sorts of realism/versimilitude/feature/depth perks, like a built in and very cool disguise (though not character skill dependent) option and working pretty nicely together with theft. Speaking of which, if we're going to have thieves blending in with crowds, a pick pocket skill would be awesome.

Still, that aside, wouldn't it be nice to have at least very limited above head name hovering? Like, maybe stick a "Let this character display my name" checkbox under the invite to party etc. buttons, and make it allow them to press a key to display your name on the screen above your head (or near your arrow) when and only when you are in their party? I don't think there's anything incredible about being quick to recognize the people in your party.

And while we're on the topic, might we ever get kin groups? Maybe just 3, family, distant relatives, friends?

[loftar]

Aw, but jorb's 2D art is pretty!

Then again, you haven't seen his 3D art, have you? ;)

I think it would be immensely helpful if we had more clothes. Just throwaway, purely cosmetic, cheap stuff, maybe 5-15 shirts and pants associated with various occupation groups (or hell even good old palette swapping for linen pants would rock).

We agree. The only real problem is how to craft them. Some time, we would like to take the time to implement the entire resource tree for various dyes and make a dying tub and similar things -- oh, and woolen clothes will be coming, too -- but until we've done that, it would be a bit boring to throw them in with no-op recipes. In particular, it would be kind of fun to implement ranging rarity of certain dyes; just think of Tyrian Purple! :D

And while we're on the topic, might we ever get kin groups? Maybe just 3, family, distant relatives, friends?

Yes, I hope to implement that.

[Ferinex]

On the topic of 3D: I was just thinking how nice that would be for walls yesterday. I'm thinking along the lines of the walls in Black & White 2.

And all of the other objects being rotatable would probably help make the towns look more varied.

[kholhaus]

On the topic of the topic... I believe a learning system is in order. It would help.

SUPER AWESOME NAME SYSTEM MARK 1:

First off, players don't have names when you hover your mouse over them. For you to learn their names they must either tell you, or you talk with them alot, eventually the encoded name (E.g. Andrew becomes A**re*) becomes normal and you know their full name. This of course could be bypassed by both players agreeing to become Kin. It's quite simple really, you can tell someone your name if you want them to know it, but if you're a thief escaping, they won't know your name that easily.

Maybe a percent every speech bubble/chat message?

There could also be a recognition stat, along with the marking feature.