Is the game balanced towards justice?

[CG62]

Fine, I'll accept that It was pretty dumb to post this in the first place, considering I have no firsthand experience whatsoever.
Gah I'm tired of having my ass handed to me on the forum. I think I'll shut up for a while now.

Sorry, didn't want to be too harsh, was just having a bit of a giggle.

I didn't mean to come off as being butthurt, I was actually trying to make a bit of a joke on myself. I failed at phrasing it correctly, though, so... yeah.

[theTrav]

I didn't mean to come off as being butthurt, I was actually trying to make a bit of a joke on myself. I failed at phrasing it correctly, though, so... yeah.

You wanna hug it out?

[Peter]

To the Hug Arena!

[Delamore]

It's unfortunately binary; either it is impossible to commit a crime and escape, or it is impossible to bring someone to justice. It's never "maybe" possible.

I dunno, I believe there are players out there who have committed crimes and escaped, also people out there who have committed crimes and been brought to justice...

Back to the OP's subject question though, I think the game is, and should continue to be, balanced such that justice is at the advantage. People don't really need encouragement to start a life of crime.

Yeah because a system that involves risking your character to gain what is a small amount of another persons time investment should give the side that risks the smallest amount an advantage! All in a game where they want to encourage both sides to play.

Also, to be quite honest, I'm not completely sure how tracking works, I haven't actually invested in Ranging/The black skills.

Thanks for being honest, it clearly shows you have no clue what you are talking about.

The downfall of many theives is greed, If you leave 1-2 scents and have your hearth on the other side of the map behind brick walls it'll make you pretty hard to find and protected against everyone but the most experienced rangers, who will probably not bother over a chest unless it had something important in it. If you leave a ton of scents anyone can track you and you are as good as dead.

Hahaha yeah fucking right, I've known people who built places layered 4 times with brick walls and had it torn down over a few scents.
And 1-2 scents? So for an investment of walking across the map, getting the 200k or what ever it is now to get black skills, the investment to build multiple layers of bricks AND the 80+ strength to break walls this person should be able to LOOK INTO A CHEST AND HOPE IT HAS ONE GOOD ITEM TO TAKE YEEAH
Oh wait there are walls in the way, welp you can break the wall and open the chest!
YEEEEAAAH THIEVERY

[theTrav]

Retorts

Please offer us a solution wise and benevolent one, clearly you know the best way forward that doesn't result in horrible people stealing everything that's not nailed down.

[Potjeh]

For starters, it would be good if just looking in a container didn't leave a theft scent.

Anyway, Delamore, you fail to mention that the thief doesn't actually have to risk anything at all if he gets full tradition. He can just go on a spree, then drown himself to get rid of the scents.

[fructose]

Here's a solution: create conditions that would allow thieves to be good at their craft. Right now we just take stuff and get killed in our sleep. Good thieves have nothing to lose, because they inevitably lose everything that tradition won't save.

Right now, just about any attention would be an improvement. Here's how scents currently exist, do any of these characteristics allow for the possibility of any thief ever being untrackable and hence successful?

Any crime leaves a scent anywhere that anyone can see.
Even if you don't know the area, what's supposed to be there, or don't occupy that space often, you have uncanny abilities to know something has been stolen without even knowing your inventory.

Every scent is conditionally infinite.
If 200 people want one scent from one crime, they can do it. It never runs out. Scents aren't limited to the victim of a crime to initially collect.

There are no conditions that affect how long a scent stays at a crime. It is always the same.
If an area is heavily trafficked, scents are just as unaffected as if no one has ever disturbed the scene.

Inventoried scents do not decay.
They just go into the inventory for ever. They don't need to be specially stored, or collected, merely collected and then can be transferred over and over again.

Scents can not be manipulated by anyone.
A thief has no control over whether or not they leave a scent. They can't leave one on purpose, they can't take another scent and drop it somewhere. They can't disturb the area and make a scent less prominent. They can actually steal their scent and leave another scent.

All of these characteristics favor ranging, and discourage thieves from being minimally intrusive. Once one summonable scent is left, they can be reasonably assured that nothing can mitigate the mortal consequences that await them. Yet all of these characteristics can be changed to favor ranging less and deescalate the state of ranging and thievery.

Now I actually think the game is more balanced toward to brutalism, not just justice or crime. Every deterrent to thieves (walls and ranging) has encouraged thieves to be more destructive, and likewise, encouraged rangers to be the same. Putting up walls means thieves will become stronger, give them the death penalty and they max out tradition, and rangers respond to this be being less discriminating and more brutal.

[Jackard]

Before map reset I tracked someone clear across the supergrid and summoned them (Swarley of Quagmire County) with only seven uses of a single scent. He didnt even steal anything, just looked into a tanning tub. I had only modest stats... 20-25 perception 40 exploration.

@fructose: i agree with the brutality bit, there being few options available for retaliation doesnt help. the capture mechanic i suggested earlier was intended to relieve this... add options instead of having rangers meteing out death, death, more death to petty thieves and vandals

[kobnach]

Yeah because a system that involves risking your character to gain what is a small amount of another persons time investment should give the side that risks the smallest amount an advantage! All in a game where they want to encourage both sides to play.

In my experience, the advantage is with the thief/griefer, assuming he's clueful. He needs one suicidal character - full trad or throw away. He then goes on a spree, until eventually put down - probably by someone who isn't suicidal (or full trad). Whatever the thief stole is stashed with other characters, before his inevitable demise - or simply destroyed. And whoever put him down - not being prepared for this - risks losing a character that's neither full trad nor throw away. Either that or he waits several days to act on scents gathered, as he moves to full trad - and meanwhile lots more is stolen/destroyed.

But you should know this, Delamore. Ask Jackard for pointers if you don't know how; I'm sure he'll help out a fellow goon.

To keep this under control, I'd rather like to see accounts indelibly marked with their history. Not summonable scents, but an aura - slightly blackened for each summonable crime committed by any other character on the account, or at least for any ancestor. A ranger who kills a few times would have a few black marks on his descendants, scarcely noticeable - but folks like Pumpkin, Jackard, etc. would have obviously marked descendants, tarred with the bad reputation their ancestors had earned. This would be consistent with the theme, since family reputation was incredibly important, and kin groups were liable for their members' crimes. It would also make life a lot easier for those with no interest in being involved in "black" skills as criminal or victim.

It's not perfect - from the potential victim's point of view - since alts can be created on new accounts - but it does make black skills involve a real risk, not just a chance to recycle/rename a character one already wishes to be rid of.

[fructose]

Most thieves I've known, and myself included, already do this for you. Sometimes our victims never notice, for example, that all my characters from the last world were soda pop ingredients. This world will have a different theme, since I almost ran out of ingredients. Perhaps it will be the same word in different languages, battlesites from WWII, styles of hats, I don't know.

But ultimately, you're advocating a thiefless world (which your idea wouldn't accomplish but whatever), to which I can only reply, play harvest moon. To give players that information is essentially encouraging pre-emptive murder. It's pretty much the "Bush Doctrine" and I can only imagine that thieves would respond in kind. If that were to be the state of things, I'd probably want to have someone capable and ready use the scent of the ranger, but right now I don't see the point to rely on murder in that way. You see, in dealing with thieves, we've only escalated the conflict to new levels of brutality, so it's natural to have strong feelings - we've raised the stakes quite a lot. The last time I was killed for thievery, it was because I ate someone's carrot cake. Escalating conflict is the last thing we want to do. We need to deescalate and diffuse the current patterns of aggression because they can't be contained in a healthy environment if they get too much worse. I primarily like eating other people's food, but in order to do that, I have to break walls and pummel people with my fists nowadays. I'd rather not have to resort to something more than vandalism and battery to eat other people's food, but I probably would if I were challenged as you suggest.