Specialization...

[kobnach]

attributes already effect the quality of things, like perception with cooking and dexterity with sewing and strength for smithing.

Yup, I agree with that and quality of tools and appliances already affect the q of goods too, which is great. But how much perception do you need to be able to bake Rings of Brodgar vs Carrot Cake? and what if not only perception counted for cooking, but maybe intelligence or dexterity or both as well as perception, at different weights?

What is the goal here? No newbie has those stats, and any experienced player can afford to buy the food to gain any stat they want, even if specialization makes them unable to make all food products. If making decent perception foods requires significant perception, you create a 2 tier system - experienced players, their friends and alts can make any skill usable in a relatively short time; newbies have to grind grind grind to get competent at anything, and then compete with other marginally competent newbies to buy the products to get better at anything else.

We already have this to some extent - think of the struggle most folks go through to get cauldrons and meat grinders - is it really helpful to make that worse?

[Potjeh]

I think that H&H as it is encourages specialization well enough. It's just that people decide that they'd rather be mediocre at everything than great at one thing. Why? Because trade sucks.

If I want planks for a herbalist table, for example, I'd either have to make a thread, wait for multiple replies and see who gives me the best offer, and then arrange the trade, or just go to the IRC and arrange an immediate trade that is likely to be a big rip-off. Either case, arranging trade through IRC and carrying it out (porting back and forth, inventory shuffling, etc) will take me at least 20 minutes which could in most cases be used to produce more value than the actual value of traded goods.

What people need is a quick, convenient and fairly reliable way to buy anything they want. Autoshops stocked by players would fill this role perfectly. By regularly checking local shops, you can always be sure you're getting a fair deal, and you'll know where exactly to look for a specific item (shops owned by farmers will tend to be stocked with pastries).

[Chakravanti]

No NPC's please. I think trade works fine. People in IRC do not pay any more for stuff than they do on forums.

Albiet we've had a strange decline in the quantity of general trading since Jorb left. I am STILL left with more trades than I can effectively manage as I've appointed some of my newbies to stand in and conduct trades for me from time to time. I mean..maybe some more shit than I would guess is going on in PMs between some players but I get the impression that I conduct about %60 of the trades in H&H at about 2-6 trades/day.

[Potjeh]

I am STILL left with more trades than I can effectively manage

Precisely. Trade is very time-intensive, as most of it is standing around waiting. If it only required one party to be present, it'd go a lot faster, and would be worth it for small trades (would you travel to RoB just to sell a single stone axe?).

Anyway, why are you so dead-set against these "NPCs"? Autoshops are no more NPCs than meat grinders are. They're just constructions you can interact with.

[sabinati]

(would you travel to RoB just to sell a single stone axe?).

i did that yesterday.

[Potjeh]

Well, you're nuts, or you got paid way too much.

Point is, retail sales don't exist in H&H. All we have is direct manufacturer-consumer trade, which means that only bulk trade makes sense (trade in H&H has huge transport costs). Vast majority of trade IRL goes through retail before it reaches the customer, and if it was practical, same would happen in H&H.

Retail shops actually create demand, because they make it more convenient to buy things than to make them yourself. All this increased demand means that more bulk trade will happen, because shops need to be stocked. I think people are opposed to autoshops because they see them as competition. Autoshops aren't competition to wholesalers, they're friends. With autoshops you can have a more stable and predictable market (and a much larger one), which allows you to plan your production in a way that maximizes your profits.

[sabinati]

maybe it's that i'm not that far from the RoB, or maybe it's that my agility is well over 100, or that one tankard of beer removes all my TW, but i guess i don't "get" your argument that trade has a huge transport cost.

[Potjeh]

It's a hidden cost - missed opportunities. In the time it takes you to arrange and conduct your average trade you could produce at least 2-3 bars of wrought iron. If your net profit is less than what you paid in missed opportunities, your trade doesn't make any sense from the economist point of view.

[NaoWhut]

2)you only could improve a skill by completing tasks that required it:
basically like above, but more categories
if you plant something you get all the LP into farming...
if you shot a bow then you get all that LP into marksmanship...

Just me or does this sound like
it would mean a lot more grinding
and a lot less of my fun little bear
hunts to get more sewing and
farming?....

I like games with no grind, people
tend to play them smarter than the
"Best grinder wins" games

[loftar]

FWIW, Jorb and I drew the same conclusion as Potjeh a while ago, and we do more or less intend to implement autoshops (we'd like to implement some other kind of shop to smooth out bartering a bit as well, but that is less prioritized). It's mostly just a matter of implementing the prerequisities for them, particularly some extension of coin minting so that there can be something that can be used as a common medium of exchange. I've described in other threads what I'd like to do about that.