... and thats how left the game.

[ImpalerWrG]

The real problem is that there are large groups of un-networked n00bs who get killed and then whine about why no-one is doing anything about it. While there are other places that organise their social networks and get help. The "bounty hunters" are already out there in the places like Bottleneck who are protecting their whole grid. Your goal is to develop some kind of relationship with those "bounty hunters", be that by moving into grids that offer protection, trading, developing contacts, whatever. No-one will do anything to help you if no-one knows about your village in the first place.

That's a bit of an exaggeration, we were grinding stats into triple digits like some people but we were hardly newbs by any reasonable standards. Our village was marked on web-map and while we were not prominent by any means we were hardly trying to isolate ourselves. We had bronze industries and were in friendly trading relationships with a number of other communities. We had even traveled to Constantinople and were doing quite a bit of networking and building of friendly relationships with Water's Edge and hope that someone will try to avenge us. But that's all its going to be vengeance as the whole grid has been massacred by just two people, only yesterday a village named Durion was also attacked in an almost identical manor. The bounty hunters could not have saved either of us, only avenged us.

While the fact that their are some 'safe' areas, most players spawn else ware. From all appearances the law-enforcement what Bottleneck dose in it's grid is more about bragging rights and flexing muscle then anything else. While I think what they do is interesting and useful I don't see how we could have traded or purchased such protection short of living in their grid which is a world away and would mean abandoning all we had worked for. If some large city had decided to go to war with us that would be one thing, we would expect to lose but this was just 2 griefers, if they had jumped and killed one person that wouldn't be too unreasonable. But being able to kill the whole village so easily despite our use of a palisade. And spare me the scolding for using keys, we all know teleportation is not intended for that and is going away soon. If anything the larger size of our community makes us easier to attack as the grifers are more easily able to find a victim to kill/loot and get access, they then camp the area and kill each person as they wake up, they are probably still their as I type this.

[Phalene]

I think one of the problems with the game-as-a-real-world-sim is basically that there's no reward for leaving people's characters alive. Being killed potentially doesn't bother me as much as the fact that my character can't swear fealty as a serf and swear to serve on the lord's land and pay a percent of my harvest to him. True you can join a village with stronger people, but the way things are set up, low level characters are a productive liability for most things because they make low quality goods. This is unlike in the real world, where farming includes low skill labour like pulling stones from feilds and other tasks children can do. On the other hand, in the real world killing people is technically as easy as a well aimed drop of a cinder block off my balcony and doesn't require a specialized skill tree.

At the moment, if I find some heavily armoured type and swear to follow his (or her) banner, he's likely to say "What the hell do I do with q8 carrots? I don't even have any butter!" Specialization in nature VS industry at least means it's to your advantage to make a friend, unless you're an alt happy type.

The only answer I can see is giving a rewarding role to people who attract lots of other players, to balance out the "can't trust anyone!" effect.

So it's not the viking raiders that sucks, it's the fact that a non-combat oriented person can't bribe them and most of the killing is being done to say "I pwned you!" and not to enforce obedient vassals. That's not even getting into people who see PK as being the social version of pulling your pigtails VS those who feel it's being beaten for your lunch money

So... Can I interest any of you noble chaps in some low quality wheat? How about some bunny fur?

[Lothaudus]

and hope that someone will try to avenge us.

Well thar's yer problem. Don't hope. Ask them. Maybe post or offer a reward. "Anyone who can kill these people for us and secure our village we are willing to offer [X] in return".

But that's all its going to be vengeance as the whole grid has been massacred by just two people, only yesterday a village named Durion was also attacked in an almost identical manor. The bounty hunters could not have saved either of us, only avenged us.

From what you're saying, it seems that if Durion had been avenged in the first place, those same raiders wouldn't have been able to destroy your own village.

While I think what they do is interesting and useful I don't see how we could have traded or purchased such protection short of living in their grid which is a world away and would mean abandoning all we had worked for.

... but have you asked them? I'm not saying they'll say yes or even consider the issue as I certainly don't speak for them. But here we've identified a group (be that Bottleneck, your neighbours or anyone else) that may be able to render assistance in your circumstance and you don't appear to have directly sought their assistance by simply asking them directly. Or even posting a general "help, our village has been attacked" thread ("waaah nerf raider ideas" in this forum don't count ).

we would expect to lose but this was just 2 griefers, if they had jumped and killed one person that wouldn't be too unreasonable.

I have to agree on the having one person being able to single-handedly fight and kill everyone does suck and I believe jorb and loftar are working on ways to reduce that. Not much you can really do if all your villagers are encountered one-by-one though.

Of course, I'm assuming your villagers had armour, weapons and basic combat skills too because slaughtering entire villagers of unarmoured farmers with no combat skills or weapons should be entirely plausible.

But being able to kill the whole village so easily despite our use of a palisade. And spare me the scolding for using keys, we all know teleportation is not intended for that and is going away soon. If anything the larger size of our community makes us easier to attack as the grifers are more easily able to find a victim to kill/loot and get access, they then camp the area and kill each person as they wake up, they are probably still their as I type this.

/scolds you for using keys. Though in this instance, the pallisade probably wouldn't have lasted long anyway.

I do believe we need some kind of gate-keeper / village members only gate mechanism though. A large, keyless gate that has a handle or mechanism on the inside of town that another villager has to "activate" in order to open / close the gate to let people in and out. Perhaps it can only be activated by the LS, Chieftain or a Hirdsman. Still runs the risk of letting people in and out while the gate is open but that's resolved by checking the area first before opening the gate. It does stop the "villager died and someone took his keys" game mechanic though.

[Jaroslav]

It does stop the "villager died and someone took his keys" game mechanic though.

Heres another way to stop the "villager died and someone took his keys" game mechanic; don't give keys out god damn

[ImpalerWrG]

Well thar's yer problem. Don't hope. Ask them. Maybe post or offer a reward. "Anyone who can kill these people for us and secure our village we are willing to offer [X] in return".

We have nothing offer we are all ghosts, the grifers have probably destroyed or looted most valuables by now. About all we can do is give some meaningless permission for others to scavenge what they can find in our old village.

... but have you asked them? I'm not saying they'll say yes or even consider the issue as I certainly don't speak for them. But here we've identified a group (be that Bottleneck, your neighbours or anyone else) that may be able to render assistance in your circumstance and you don't appear to have directly sought their assistance by simply asking them directly. Or even posting a general "help, our village has been attacked" thread ("waaah nerf raider ideas" in this forum don't count ).

As I said in my initially post, my contact list vaporizes upon my death. In game contact is my sole means of contact with most other players hence my suggestion about allowing it to be retained on an inherited character. I've have pursued contact with on the forums with the one settlement we knew that has a forum presence but this was mere luck. Your own extensive out-of-game networking and long history of village politics is blinding you to how most people play the game and network with others. And yes of course I have posted about the raid, in the same thread ware Durion asks for some vengeance, so far no ones stepped forward.

I have to agree on the having one person being able to single-handedly fight and kill everyone does suck and I believe jorb and loftar are working on ways to reduce that. Not much you can really do if all your villagers are encountered one-by-one though.

Of course, I'm assuming your villagers had armour, weapons and basic combat skills too because slaughtering entire villagers of unarmoured farmers with no combat skills or weapons should be entirely plausible.

We were for the most part unarmed farmers, though some had armor. I don't believe these guys even used weapons though, they just punched people to death in a few hits. Like I said I expect warrior characters to be able to kill a non-warrior especially two on one, it's getting into the village and then killing everyone else I feel is going to far. The killers are not made tired or even scratched much in a series of fights against lesser opponents, it's not at all feasible for us to fight together and unless your a dedicated warrior character your useless in combat in this kind of fight. We would have ALL needed to be dedicated warriors to fight off this attack, and they would still have had the advantage of surprise and being able to both choose the time of their attack so as to double team their chosen victim. The village is only as safe as its weakest member.

A naked un-walled village of farmers is not going to stand up to a raid and no one is suggesting it should. But cowing behind our walls SHOULD be a viable option if we invest time/energy into a static defence. Our Palisades and other passive defensive measures should be able to level the playing field better. Also we had just started a brick wall the night before when we learned of the destruction of Durion but theirs no indication they broke through any walls in either attack, their ambush and key looting indicates to me they can't smash palisades with their bare hands and don't use battering rams (given the effectiveness of their tactic a ram would have been a waste of time anyways). Again it would have made no difference what the wall material was as the vulnerability is in the key system.

I do believe we need some kind of gate-keeper / village members only gate mechanism though. A large, keyless gate that has a handle or mechanism on the inside of town that another villager has to "activate" in order to open / close the gate to let people in and out. Perhaps it can only be activated by the LS, Chieftain or a Hirdsman. Still runs the risk of letting people in and out while the gate is open but that's resolved by checking the area first before opening the gate. It does stop the "villager died and someone took his keys" game mechanic though.

Well it seems you entirely agree with me as I suggested as such in my initial post.

[JayCross]

Killing already runs the high risk of leaving a scent behind which another killer can collect and then use to summon you while you're offline, at which point they can kill you without you ever putting up a fight.

I'd say that's pretty risky and unrewarding.

Yes, if anyone bothers to get to our village catch their scent and hunt them down. And people will only do it for fun or ,just like our attackers, for the fun of killing.

Why do you lie? I have no intentions of raiding villages that are n00bier than us. Trade is simply more fun and less risky because I'm not leaving scents everywhere that would come back to bite me in the ass, hard.

I agree with you trading its much more fun. but it isn't more easier.

No. When places like Bottleneck attack and wipe everything in your village out, that is not less risky.

Because you can't kill them. No really, you go try and knock over the wall at Sodom and take their Iron mine. You'll last less than a minute at most. Even if raiders with high skills were successful, they would be summarily summoned offline and killed by those Sodomites who survived the initial attack. Then their town razed to the ground.

You're thinking about greater villages very well protected but these kind of raiders won't attack those places. they will hunt smaller ones. like ours that doesn't mean we're noobs, we're just smaller.

The real problem is that there are large groups of un-networked n00bs who get killed and then whine about why no-one is doing anything about it. While there are other places that organise their social networks and get help. The "bounty hunters" are already out there in the places like Bottleneck who are protecting their whole grid. Your goal is to develop some kind of relationship with those "bounty hunters", be that by moving into grids that offer protection, trading, developing contacts, whatever. No-one will do anything to help you if no-one knows about your village in the first place.

We're not that kind of noobs.
we had Xroads with the nearby villages and we were establishing trading routes with some of them, but now its all gone.

we had tin and and probably the monopoly on copper in our grid and your suggesting that we move 2/3 grids to get a protection that would probably manifest it self in some kind of vengeance for our killed chars? it Doesn't seem very productive...

If there was a noobish move from our part was probably relying our defences on a palisade(as impalerWrG as been posting they do present some liabilities) and invest our experience in improving the quality of our products and not on our fighting abilities.
But again I thought that the purpose of the game was to encourage trading and not fighting.

[Lothaudus]

Well thar's yer problem. Don't hope. Ask them. Maybe post or offer a reward. "Anyone who can kill these people for us and secure our village we are willing to offer [X] in return".

We have nothing offer we are all ghosts, the grifers have probably destroyed or looted most valuables by now. About all we can do is give some meaningless permission for others to scavenge what they can find in our old village.

You have no intentions of re-building what-so-ever?

You can't catch a few moths and start making silk again?

You're incapable of scouting for high Q clay, water or soil to trade?

You haven't actually asked anyone yet?

As I said in my initially post, my contact list vaporizes upon my death. In game contact is my sole means of contact with most other players hence my suggestion about allowing it to be retained on an inherited character. I've have pursued contact with on the forums with the one settlement we knew that has a forum presence but this was mere luck. Your own extensive out-of-game networking and long history of village politics is blinding you to how most people play the game and network with others.

Actually the biggest contact list I have is on an alt at Constantinople. I also have a second alt character in my town who duplicates most of my list. The chances of all three dying are relatively slim but even if they did, I know where my allies live and can always start a new character and boat my way there (which is how I met them in the first place mostly) so...

Contacting people online is also a real PIA because they have to be online at the same time as you are in order for you to contact them.

I thought your suggestion was a good idea by the way. Although it doesn't excuse the fact there are still other methods available to you to contact people both in-game and out. And being a game, using out-of-game contact is sometimes a necessity (face it, if it was real life, you'd be dead now and there's no coming back from that ).

And yes of course I have posted about the raid, in the same thread ware Durion asks for some vengeance, so far no ones stepped forward.

I'll be blunt and tell you what your post honestly made me think.

This is how I read it: "Hi, we're a bunch of idiots who left our gate open. Someone should do something about that." All the serious players use Brick Walls and one-way crossroads without keys and as you've already noted, they will scold you for using keys, so you're going to have to try harder then that to get them even remotely interested.

Your post was also buried in some other thread so meh, minus marks for lack of flare. If nobody cared about Durion, throwing what reads like a casual "we got hit too" in there doesn't help so much. "Jolatown has been attacked! Help requested." would've been a nice topic name. After all, I've actually heard of Jolatown, not Durion. Including details of who, what, where, when and how also doesn't go astray. Images if you can rustle it up help evoke emotion too. Pictures of where your Mansion was and dead bodies go a long way. And include your offer. Sure, you can't offer much but put something on the table to try and entice someone to help. Even just a "We can't offer much but we're willing to try and work something out".

You can't really expect to just throw a post casually out there and get help.

I mean look, it's a real pain your village got wiped. I've had mine attacked too back in the 2nd World. The difference is we had developed contacts who we knew could help us, some PMs later and a few chats with the right people and we got an outcome. No, it didn't bring anybody back and there was other stuff that went on as well that lead to further attacks against a second village... but you need to try.

We would have ALL needed to be dedicated warriors to fight off this attack

Even in that case though, the GOONS couldn't stop Bottleneck. They were online and armed while that occured. There does appear to be some-what of a balance issue when it comes to combat. Quite how far back that slider should go is a worthwhile discussion.

But cowing behind our walls SHOULD be a viable option if we invest time/energy into a static defence. Our Palisades and other passive defensive measures should be able to level the playing field better.

From everything you say, it sounds like your palisades did precisely what they were designed to do, given you feel the raiders wouldn't have been able to break-through them. Though traps have also been suggested as a means for claims to "fight back".

Also we had just started a brick wall the night before when we learned of the destruction of Durion but theirs no indication they broke through any walls in either attack, their ambush and key looting indicates to me they can't smash palisades with their bare hands and don't use battering rams (given the effectiveness of their tactic a ram would have been a waste of time anyways). Again it would have made no difference what the wall material was as the vulnerability is in the key system.

In which case you need to understand that key looting is a mechanic of the game. Given that - harsh as it is and as much as it sucks - it's your villages own fault for allowing keys to be in a position where they can be looted in the first place. I mean, you can implement a gate-keeper mechanism right now. Simply give the keys to someone else in the village before they let you out. Failing that, use an alt. You can complain as much as you like about having to do that but welcome to Haven & Hearth.

You should also read some of the stuff jorb says on this forum and the kind of stuff he links to in this announcement post. "Freedom of the individual" is a concept running through every thing he not only posts on the forums but adds to the game. I'm pretty sure he wants keys precisely because they can be stolen. Rest assured if any portcullis is added, there will be some weakness to it. Either massive village authority for its upkeep or something else.

As much as you want to deride the current teleportation methods, the fact also remains they are in the game and you can use them right now to protect your village. And if you don't want to, then like I said, hire a gate-keeper. Build a secondary air-lock type wall so that only one gate is open at a time and no-one with a full set of keys gets through both. Break your village up into various sections so that if the keys are stolen to one and someone gets in, others have a chance to flee to safety. Work something out.

Well it seems you entirely agree with me as I suggested as such in my initial post.

Certainly. I agree there are issues that need to be addressed and also that jorbtar are aware of them. Some of the ideas come from "waaaah we got raided" though by people who don't think through all the mechanics or want naked farmers to be able to to with-stand everything, without considering the implications of that. Even the "no level cap" complaints fall into that (there pretty much is a level cap given how much high skills eventually start to cost). On a broader issue, jorb has made it pretty clear raiding is a fact of the game and that farmer-types do need to take action to prepare against it. That includes claims, walls, smart key usage, defense and making alliances / playing politics. They're all tools that currently exist in the game for a reason and they're all at your disposal right now.

Yes, if anyone bothers to get to our village catch their scent and hunt them down. And people will only do it for fun or ,just like our attackers, for the fun of killing.

That attitude doesn't engender help. I mean, you're effectively complaining about a core mechanic which has no intention of ever being removed. As long as jorb & loftar are making Haven & Hearth, there will be death.

You're thinking about greater villages very well protected but these kind of raiders won't attack those places.

There's a lesson in that somewhere.

we had tin and and probably the monopoly on copper in our grid

And there's ImpalerWrG saying you don't have anything to trade! It doesn't take long to get a mine back in working order.

If there was a noobish move from our part was probably relying our defences on a palisade(as impalerWrG as been posting they do present some liabilities) and invest our experience in improving the quality of our products and not on our fighting abilities.

Well, the first thing I'd suggest you do is you turn some of that Copper & Tin into high Q Bronze Armour (50+) and hand it out to all your villagers. You might even want to trade it with your trade partners. It won't stop them dying if all they do is stand there but it will give them a chance to run away.

But again I thought that the purpose of the game was to encourage trading and not fighting.

See above where I talk about what jorb has said and the post in the announcement forum he made. Haven & Hearth is a dangerous place. It's meant to be that way.

[niltrias]

From all appearances the law-enforcement what Bottleneck dose in it's grid is more about bragging rights and flexing muscle then anything else.

No, its more about having an area where we can play the game the way we like it.

[DeadlyPencil]

the contact list is 2 way. what if people didn't want people to know their new characters name? what if i was your friend and backstabbed you and as soon as you inherited i knew your new characters name? and could kill you again.

[Folly]

My complaint is that someone can make an alt, set up a macro program and let it run for a couple of days to stock up LP, then force-feed him a few pieces of cheese from the main account, and he's all ready to go on a killing spree, destroying dozens of people before he's taken down. Then it's a simple matter to make a new alt and do it all over again, griefing many while losing relatively little.

IMO, victims should never lose more LP/attributes than what the murderer had. This would at least mitigate the issue somewhat.