Research, Skalds, and Learning Fires

[DatOneGuy]

I was just tossing that out as a placeholder for an actual idea, that would indeed be very lame.

I'm actually all for minigames to learn things personally, perhaps having to create some form of blueprint or the first time you make a shoe actually having a screen come up where you have to go through the motions of assembling the shoe. However, I'm sure most people would dread this, so I didn't bother saying so.

Minigames sound fun, until you have to do them for one thousandth time. At that point, they just become a necessary chore, that separates you from item you need.

also I think you're missing the point of what I was saying for the whole gaining knowledge of, some things would be easier to learn but thiswould faciliate the idea of an actual village much more than working solo, you might be able to make crude cloth from the beginning, maybe shitty leather pants, but someone with more knowledge in the area can make better leather pants (given the way materials work) and furthermore would 'learn' how to make better leather gear like Cutthroat Cuirass, or learning how to create Hardened Leather.

In such a case, a farmer couldn't just turn around with no expertise in leather what so ever and make a seedbag, that would require a little stitching and such so it wouldn't be high maybe require 10 Leatherworking (gainable with maybe an afternoon fiddling around) and be able to make them.

So yes that farmer who wants one could turn around and learn it in an afternoon if he wants to,but it's not necessary.

But this is already in the game. If you live in a village, you don't have to be good at everything, you specialize in one field and invest your LP into skills that support it. Other stuff you can't do well, you get from fellow villagers. I mean sure, a farmer can learn how to craft weapons quite easily, but who needs q10 swords, when guy next door can make q100 ones. Hermits on other hand have to be good at everything, so they're obviously at disadvantage, because it takes them much longer to obtain high quality goods. Current system already supports division of labor and advantages that come from it.

I didn't suggest repeating it.

Quality works on so few things that one person could fit into at least 3 professions with ease.

Yeah, for the kids who can't go outside.
A more accurate description:

If I wanted this type of system I would play Runescape.

Wasn't a full suggestion I made, no need to break off completely from OPs suggestion, which really has no bearing in Runescape at all.

[Brackwell]

Sure it does. Mindlessly grinding the same item just so you can make the next item up. I like to play games that are fun. I like to play Haven and Hearth because I can jump right into anything as long as I have the materials. If I ever had to make tons of flour before I could make bread and tons of bread before I could make pies, I would stop playing.

[Potjeh]

If this "Outside" is so great, why are we all playing H&H?

Silliness aside, realism is a neat thing, and makes the game more believable. But gameplay is more important, so when the two come in conflict realism must lose. Doing what you like to raise what skills you want is better gameplay than being forced to do specific things to raise specific skills.

[DatOneGuy]

If this "Outside" is so great, why are we all playing H&H?

Silliness aside, realism is a neat thing, and makes the game more believable. But gameplay is more important, so when the two come in conflict realism must lose. Doing what you like to raise what skills you want is better gameplay than being forced to do specific things to raise specific skills.

Really depends on how loose each thing is.

For example if for Leatherworking the only thing you can do is craft leather than yes, it's boring and you end up repeating the same thing over and over and over.

However if there is a Clothworking skill that pretty much everything made of clothing including Leatherworking or things that have cloth in them increase, it's not as bad.

As it stands now it's a system that might suck for such professions, but it would work only really for things like Farming and Cooking that have several outlets.

In any case, yup drop the idea.

Sure it does. Mindlessly grinding the same item just so you can make the next item up. I like to play games that are fun. I like to play Haven and Hearth because I can jump right into anything as long as I have the materials. If I ever had to make tons of flour before I could make bread and tons of bread before I could make pies, I would stop playing.

I'm not really suggesting that either.


I guess my suggestion was rather vague, what I mean is that for certain things that are used much later in the game like let's say a Cutthroat Cuirass, you would have to gain enough to knowledge of Leatherworking to make such a thing.
If I ever bother posting this I'll actually put some thought into exacts before posting it.

[Potjeh]

I like the idea of using Wyrd to unlock new skills. Research and teaching could be integrated into the Wyrd system without much hassle, I think.

For raising raisable skills, IMO it should be tied to items and the quality system somehow. More itemcentric game means less grinding, and puts emphasis on player's (social) skills rather than his time investment. Would take quite a bit of thinking to come up with a complete system that's fun and fair, though.

[BWithey]

I'm all for mini-games, absolutely love them. They need to be a form of mini-game that isn't reliant on bandwidth or server speed (or else I'd suggest a 'Guitar Hero' style game for this, to simulate 'learning the songs' of knowledge). They also need to represent the activity being done.

As for those making comments about the 'repetitiveness' aspect. This entire game, like all games, is repetition.

To address the concerns of people here:

Sure it does. Mindlessly grinding the same item just so you can make the next item up. I like to play games that are fun. I like to play Haven and Hearth because I can jump right into anything as long as I have the materials. If I ever had to make tons of flour before I could make bread and tons of bread before I could make pies, I would stop playing.

You're missing the point I'm afraid. You wouldn't have to. SOMEONE would have to, but then anyone who has the skill could teach YOU the skill fairly quickly. That is the whole 'Skald' aspect. Once an individual knows the skill, they can sit down at a Skalds Fire, and teach anyone who comes along the skill. It'll take a little time, and how much time is dependent upon the quality of the teacher, but nowhere near as much time as researching the skill yourself.

An example:

Bob wishes to research the Baking skill, so Bob takes water, and flour, and begins researching baking. Bob has to research for x amount of time to unlock the skill. This may take bob a number of hours, or days, depending on how much time he dedicates to researching Baking. Once Bob has researched this skill, he can learn it with LP.

Rob comes along, and see Bob baking, and wants to learn how to bake. Rather than spending all that time researching it independently, he can learn it quickly by having Bob sit at a Skalds Fire and teaching him. What took Bob hours or days to research, will take Rob only a few minutes to learn from Bob. He must still expend LP to learn it, but Bob makes it available to him.

As far as players social skills playing a role:

The Higher Bobs Intelligence/Charisma/Teaching Incremental skill are, the faster he teaches the skill. Specifically, the faster he produces Skalds Notes.

[Potjeh]

Why should *anyone* have to grind?

[DatOneGuy]

Why should *anyone* have to grind?

There are only two ways to make people feel they've earned things so that things aren't simply handed out:
1)Simple tasks repeated (what people hate, always ends in grind)
2)Things that are 'difficult' or require a lot of thought, these things usually end up with people simply asking for guides on, guides come, they spoil the point of everything.

The first way puts off everyone but they stay because it's still addicting. The second way puts off the people who can't cut it and get frustrated easily, however they will actually leave.

A mix of both would be best, and fun. Introducing things that are actually challenging, and not grinding would be ideal, yes, but it's just unrealistic sadly.

I will say however Haven and Hearth does this well by doing what you want to keep, diversity in gaining LP, this would be done away with were Wyrd ever brought in anyway (Everyone would just knock on door bells...) and as it is, while there are TONS of things you could do for LP, there are pretty much 3 that come out on top and nothing else comes even close: Cooking, Farming, Hunting.

Here's the thing though, each of these systems is very different from each other, however they are still very repetitive in their own way. Farming is just clicking, clicking, clicking. Cooking is just grabbing stuff, putting it in your inventory and pressing Ctrl+Enter, Hunting is just looking for things and clicking them, if you're UA maybe a little challenge there.

When I say mini-games I don't necessarily mean that some puzzle pops up like in Alien Swarm so you can kill a monster, but I mean some way of changing things to be a little more fun and keep you on your toes, a little difference between different animals as well. There may not be much that can be done here in an isometric tile game, but I'm sure something can be thought up.

[BWithey]

On the matter of mini-games, readdressed:

There is a game called Puzzle Pirates, that is heavily based off of PopCap games, and is very repetitive. The reason people stay in that game is the community. This entire game is built off of community, the work I do is enjoyable because I work with a team to accomplish it, and we make it fun by chattering and just having fun and being afraid of Boars and Bears.

Mini-games would allow a level of player skill involved, an activity to complete to break the monotony, and generally, I think, be a good way to help mitigate the 'grind' aspect.

This idea was designed to foster community and cooperation, and was designed to add the least global grind possible.

With an individual being able to research a skill, and then teach others faster than he researched it, it facilitates the spread of ideas, the cornerstone of education, and making progress a group endeavour.

[vikingdragons]

listen, we have, what, three starting skills? Oral Tradition, Primitive Weapons, and Wilderness Survival. And we have a skill tree. Modify the skill tree, skill values, and add XP along with LP, and you can make it to where new items/actions are learned in small skill value increments (such as in 5s 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, etc.), and new skills (such as farming, animal husbandry, murder, etc.) are learned in large increments. Of course, things like Mining and any other beginning to a skill Branch, would be learned by spending LP or being taught by someone in an ACTIVE way (not a passive way because then people would make throw-away teacher alts and never learn anything) LP could also be put into a skill value, but be worth less than XP. (ie. 5 LP=1 XP)
So, time for a random-outline-for-no-apparent-reason:
-Experience Points increase your Skill Value and expand your Skill Branch
-Learning Points unlock new Skill Branches and can be used as XP, but at a rate of 5LP=1XP
-Someone can be taught a Skill Branch and/or Skill by someone who knows it, in an active mini-game type event.
-Skill Values represent what you can do with a Skill and how far you can get in a Skill Branch.

example of a Skill Branch
-Primitive Tools=Free Starting Skill
--Lumberjacking=40XP/200LP (because 200 divided by 5 is 40, get it?)
--Pottery=40XP/200LP
---Glassmaking=150XP/750LP
--Stoneworking=40XP/200LP
---Masonry=150XP/750LP
---Metalworking=40XP/200LP
---Mining=40XP/200LP

i know it isn't a perfect system, but i think it is pretty good.