How can we encourage more trading?

[Wolfang]

Well actually the basic specialization & trade rules are already being applied on H&H.

You have the hunters, farmers, warriors, this makers, that makers, the guy who grows trees, the guy who has the good worms, the blablabla

This is how most villages already funtcion.

[Jackard]

Again clueless retards come and preach the mighty ultraspecialization having no clue whatsoever of the implications. People play games to have fun not to be assembly line workers. Who the fuck would play the game if all they could be proud of was making spoons because that's their ehm trade. Let it fucking go. Find another way to wank to your dream merchant profession capitalist pigs.

But Avu! How will I ever fulfill my wildest medieval peasant fantasies?? MY IMMERSION

[SpidersEverywhere]

I have idle visions of a world sloping down from mountains on one side, through hills, forests, mountains, grassland and coasts to an ocean with islands, each climate zone best suited to certain crops, food hard to come by on the mountains but rich with minerals, and proper tributary river systems flowing down from the highlands and merging into great wide rivers that flow to the sea...sailing trading trading boats and barges up and down a river, trading for spices and exotic food at the islands, fish on the coast, farm and ranch products in the grasslands, lumber in the forests, game in the hills, minerals in the mountains, selling each product where it's in greatest demand. No fast travel. The journey takes days. That's trade.

All that in Hnh? Dream on =D

I will, thank you. There's really nothing in there that isn't either planned or frequently suggested.

Forced character specialization would do nothing to change the fact that a large village can produce everything in the game, it would just make villages more authoritarian about how their members spend their time. It would also tip the balance of power even further towards large factions, as hermits and small groups wouldn't be able to get by on their own.

For something to be worth trading, it has to be or require one or more of the following types of item:

- Time-consuming to acquire in meaningful amounts. Linen, cavebulbs, etc.
- Requires an advanced character to create. Particularly Psyche crafts, which the devs have noted have gotten rather out of hand.
- Localized, so you can't get it just anywhere. Metal, high-q water/soil/clay.

If we want more trading, we need more items in at least one of these categories.

More time-consuming items? Ugh, there's enough already. For variety I wouldn't mind a few more things like pearls where persistence occasionally gets you a single valuable item, but that's more of a matter of psychology and storage space.

More advanced items? Well, it wouldn't hurt, but it wouldn't really change the trade system as it stands.

Now, more localized stuff, that's what we're talking about. Right now, with fast travel and relatively homogeneous terrain it's not hard for a faction to have everything available internally. But for world 4, no fast travel and regional diversity could add a huge amount here. I don't know about you but when I think of trade the first thing that comes to mind is loading up a wagon or a boat with locally-produced goods and taking them to some place where they're in demand, swapping them for whatever's plentiful there, and continuing on.

[Jackard]

Now, more localized stuff, that's what we're talking about. Right now, with fast travel and relatively homogeneous terrain it's not hard for a faction to have everything available internally. But for world 4, no fast travel and regional diversity could add a huge amount here. I don't know about you but when I think of trade the first thing that comes to mind is loading up a wagon or a boat with locally-produced goods and taking them to some place where they're in demand, swapping them for whatever's plentiful there, and continuing on.

as someone who found playing a trader delivering goods between towns in Mount and Blade more fun that it probably should have been, let me be the first to say :D

just as long as there is some form of automovement because traveling overland can be pretty dull

[Wolfang]

The trade in M&B was based on the fact that some goods were worth more in some regiosn then others.
This would, for example mean:

Region 1 'warmer'; has lots of Deer-herds=>production of cheap HQ fur clothes, which they don't need, or need 'less' because its 'warmer'

Region 2 'colder'; this part of H&H is colder, which can be deadly, fortunately, this region is the unique location of...ice; which can be used to keep food from spoiling, yet the people from region 2 don't need this, cos it's everywhere around them, and it's already cold. Region 1 however does need ice.

Region 1 trades furs for Region 2's ice.


This would encourage a new kind of trade, where, instead of trading with the big villages EVERYWHERE in the world for WHATEVER goods you need, you must trade in places you know you can get ice (for example, market places where you know people will be bringing goods from Region 2, if you're in region 1) or you could also travel all the way to region 2.

Think of the silk-route in the middle ages, or the spice trade, which led to the discovery of the Americas.

This would make the H&H market very much more global, markets would become even more necessary, with frequent traders going from one region to another making large profits for themselves, Buy 1 ice in Region 2,->go to Region 1 (some famous big-city market where you're sure people will be waiting for goods), sell it for 2 furs->go back to region 2 sell for 4 ice->... This is a type of trade that is inexistant in H&H right now. Every region has their own 'city' or local city which can produce every good.


Anyway, hopefully H&H will evolve into a more realistic & dunamic economy.

[Monkeytofu]

Again clueless retards come and preach the mighty ultraspecialization having no clue whatsoever of the implications. People play games to have fun not to be assembly line workers. Who the fuck would play the game if all they could be proud of was making spoons because that's their ehm trade. Let it fucking go. Find another way to wank to your dream merchant profession capitalist pigs.

Not sure if a troll, but I'll bite regardless.

First, your definition of fun isn't the only one in existence. Second, your exaggerations and oversimplifications of the specialization stand point is just silly. No one is saying there should "ultraspecialization" and that every hearthling should be relegated to doing super specific tasks. I wouldn't mind hearing your argument against specialization and how trade would realistically would go on with the current system/ a similar one if you want to approach it in a reasonable and well thought out way.

It doesn't help anyone when someone comes into a discussion proclaiming everyone who doesn't have the same opinion is a "clueless retard" and that we need to "let it fucking go".

Well actually the basic specialization & trade rules are already being applied on H&H.

You have the hunters, farmers, warriors, this makers, that makers, the guy who grows trees, the guy who has the good worms, the blablabla

This is how most villages already funtcion.

My issue with this is that when you really look at it, this doesn't really exist, especially on lower levels of the game. I understand when you start getting into groups of villagers who have spent a lot of time building their character you will find specialization because it is so hard to reach that proficiency.

However, if you look at lower 'level' groups and villages you really won't see much specialization and the village ecosystem and player experience suffers. Also, from my village experiences and from observations and stories I've made and heard during my time playing I haven't really noticed any true specialization. Sure, there may be "the guy who grows trees" but that guy is also a warrior, probably has the best worms, is a hunter and is a warrior (both those go hand in hand).

Now of course there shouldn't be anything wonky like Avu thinks I want to happen, I'm not against people being able to do everything, I'm just against them being able to do everything as equally as good.

This, combined with the reasons I said in my previous post and some others mentioned in this thread, really doesn't allow for a healthy trading system to be created in the H&H world.


---

On your ideas for unique areas: I am totally with you on this as the more different the areas we have to live in and the more 'hardships', the more you'll see trading and genuine interactions between people.

[DatOneGuy]

You missed the point.

The point is that if being 'specialized' to a character means spending as much fucking time doing that one thing as possible, you are just boring. Let's say that tree farming takes one stat pumped2damax, baking pottery another, building things another, smithing another, and mining yet one more. Now you need 5 'specialists' that each do one certain thing just to get that epic armor/weapons. But, these people will soon get bored because the tree farmer is JUST PLANTING TREES, the builder JUST building, the smith JUST smithing.

Ultraspecialization sucks almost as bad as ultrageneralization.

[Monkeytofu]

You missed the point.

The point is that if being 'specialized' to a character means spending as much fucking time doing that one thing as possible, you are just boring. Let's say that tree farming takes one stat pumped2damax, baking pottery another, building things another, smithing another, and mining yet one more. Now you need 5 'specialists' that each do one certain thing just to get that epic armor/weapons. But, these people will soon get bored because the tree farmer is JUST PLANTING TREES, the builder JUST building, the smith JUST smithing.

Ultraspecialization sucks almost as bad as ultrageneralization.

No one is calling for "ultraspecilization". I don't know why I have to keep repeating this.

I don't have an issue with specializing into the tree planter, smith, miner, etc. You may not think it's fun to have certain people forced into specialization. That's what I think is fun.

Now you need 5 'specialists' that each do one certain thing just to get that epic armor/weapons

Exactly! Now that you have people who need other people's skills but don't need access to them, they're forced to trade with others to get those "epic" items they want in exchange for the epic items that they need.

And I understand the fear of keeping the game from getting too monotonous and closed off, that's why I still want people to be able to make other things, just nowhere near what a specialized person would achieve.

What I see happening if a system like this were implemented would be characters that choose to say, become blacksmiths as their main profession, would still be able to be fight. This character would of course wouldn't be as good as someone who chose warrior as their main profession, but would still have the ability to be one on a lesser level (possibly no access to higher level skills?).

Right now the system lets you pump every single stat to the max. Sure, the belief system does allow for a little customization, but it really isn't that effective considering widespread use of alts which is also a major problem in this.

Alts are another major issue, but at this point I don't think I have a good enough idea of how alts would affect society in a more specialized system like this (would you see more or less? How do you discourage them?) and it seems from the posts I've read from J&L, that they have no intention of dealing with alt characters/accounts as a negative, although would be welcomed by me.

[stonedrydar]

as someone who hates the idea of just doing one kind of task, even if it wasin a village, im also against the idea of specialzing your character, as in choose when u start if u want to be a farmer or hunter. but one way could be to be specialized in a very small, but later on important detail. like being able to handle this weapon which is needed to kill that specific animal. maybe not the best example but i hope u get my idea.
anyway seems like regional diversity is what all agree.
btw no replies to my idea on the demilitarized marketplace? like right now i have stuff like pearls i want to trade, but i dont want to risk putting it in a barter stand.

[Jackard]

Stands are for trading common or cheap goods, valuables are still traded in person. Also I seriously doubt you'd ever see the devs add a no-pvp zone.

It could be more interesting to see factions organizing weekly market or trade fairs. But for that you'd need some sort of incentive for drawing all of those people to you, like regional resources and/or promoting mundane travel